Your latest experiences with the updated F16s dogfighting potential

As such, on our servers (BFM/ACM clinic), we currently limit the Hornet to the limits the aircraft allows without using the paddle.

And it is quite obvious when paddle is being used. Guys get really spun up if you point it out as well. I suppose it's not surprising, because by pointing it out you're in effect delegitimizing/pointing out their skill deficiency. Egos should be checked at the door. IMO paddle switch is a crutch. If you're someone who uses it consistently, and without it, you're finding yourself unable to convert to a CZ/WEZ (and you're also someone who is trying to employ authentically - not someone who's interested in flying like an arcade game - there's room for everyone in the sim, but I'm not addressing those people here), then you may want to revisit some basics. Start looking at basic mech like your TCE to help fix your starting geometry might be a good place to start.

Today I did a quick test with g effects disabled and it still seems to be the major F16 issue. When in the F18 you'd almost never Gloc because of its 7.5 G design. If it is true that this pilot constantly pulled 9 Gs for 23 seconds in real life. Try this in DCS:

Nobody would allow to show such a performance if a real pilot was struggling to stay awake for that amount of time Gs being pulled.

The real issue here is that there has never been an incident where a RL Hornet pilot has had his life on the line in actual combat and decided that he had to use the paddle switch to save his life or to gain an advantage to kill an opponent.

I am 100% certain that there would be no hesitation on a pilots part to use it under extraordinary circumstances. As of now there are disciplinary consequences for a pilot that pulls it during peacetime as it is pretty much put in place because if it pulled more than 7.5g on a regular basis the life of the airframe would be shortened drastically and all the legacy Charlie models would have been retired in the early 2000s if not sooner.

In our virtual world, every fight is “do or die” and you exploit whatever advantages you have to win. Just so it’s out there and known, when I am flying the Hornet I will not hesitate to use the paddle switch or the spin recovery switch at any given time to gain an advantage and will not enter a competition where it is not allowed. If people choose not to fly with me because I use them it is ok with me as well.

If you choose to fly an aircraft against me that has disadvantage either real world or by incorrect modeling, that is your choice. But don’t complain lol.

And it is quite obvious when paddle is being used. Guys get really spun up if you point it out as well. I suppose it's not surprising, because by pointing it out you're in effect delegitimizing/pointing out their skill deficiency. Egos should be checked at the door. IMO paddle switch is a crutch. If you're someone who uses it consistently, and without it, you're finding yourself unable to convert to a CZ/WEZ (and you're also someone who is trying to employ authentically - not someone who's interested in flying like an arcade game - there's room for everyone in the sim, but I'm not addressing those people here), then you may want to revisit some basics. Start looking at basic mech like your TCE to help fix your starting geometry might be a good place to start.

All that finger pointing at the Hornet and its paddle. It has nothing on the F-15. Read 'em and weep.

For real life training dogfights and direct comparition between F-16 and F/A-18 check C.W. Lemoine "Mover" channel. He flew both types.

IIRC what he told was F-16 easily outrates and outaccelerates the Hornet. Marking he was flying F-16C Block 30, lighter and more maneuverable GE engine 1980s variant than our multirole Block 50.

I feel like I’m asking a dumb question here. But what is the paddle everyone referring about on the F-18

I feel like I’m asking a dumb question here. But what is the paddle everyone referring about on the F-18

FLCS override paddle on the bottom of the stick, gives you an extra 30-33% more G available assuming you have the speed to make the lift.

Is the g-override of the paddle modeled?

Haha. F15 with 15 Gs? That aircraft will stay grounded for a long time.

In DCS everything is modeled. The g-override paddle. The F18 limiter, being too slow to catch up a quick pull, allowing to over g the F18 even without the paddle. The fatigue of over g-ing the F14, which will fall apart at some point. But maybe not soon enough ;) The only thing I am not sure about is the F15 and the flaming cliffs series. Might be too old to have it modelled. So some people thend to fly the F15 like an RC plane.

@hummingbird: How do you "ban" the paddle on your server? By just advising the people not to use it? Or is there an actual code for that?

Although I started this thread to find out your guys current opinion about the F16, I have another idea.

How difficult could it be to read out the Gs an aircraft is pulling on a multiplayer server.

I know from the "justdogfight" server, if someone fires a 9X which has a random failure rate, it will be shown to all the other players. So people know someone is not really interested in dogfighting ;)

Maybe it would be cool if the same message would be displayed if an aircraft over gs.

I Imagine it would go like this: F14 is on your six. Message appears: "F14 player xyz is pulling 12 Gs" Then you get shot down anyway. But everybody can make up his own mind about that kill later.

What was the reason they built the Viper to take 9G's all day and the Hornet to only 7.5G's?

What was the reason they built the Viper to take 9G's all day and the Hornet to only 7.5G's?

Speculating...

At 360 knots and 7.5g you get about the same turnrate as 430 knots and 9g, plus the advantage of a smaller turning circle. The higher aspect ratio of the Hornet's wings is suited for those slower airspeeds.

Speculating...

 

At 360 knots and 7.5g you get about the same turnrate as 430 knots and 9g, plus the advantage of a smaller turning circle. The higher aspect ratio of the Hornet's wings is suited for those slower airspeeds.

Yes, and the Hornet can turn longer and bleed off less speed too.

Squeezing 9G at 450kts in real combat enviroment makes the plane a lot harder to kill with any weapon than one making 7.5G at 350kts - regardless of similar turn rate - real combat enviroment is rarely a honorable 1v1 duel.

It also gives the plane a lot easier time disengaging accelerating from 450kts to supersonic after unloading the plane or chasing enemy which is trying to disengage - if you start at 350kts the chances an enemy will flee or catch you are significantly bigger.

Maintaining 450kts allows also starting vertical maneuvers - like loop over the top. Maintaining 350kts barely gives any reserve.

Hornet's 7.5G is just a compromise - not some design feature. Non naval Hornets for Switzerland with uniform wing spar due to non-folded wings allows it to squeeze more G savely than naval variant with folded wings.

The whole 20 degrees low sweep angle wing of the Hornet is a compromise which makes plane slower and lowering it's acceleration due to increased drag but this wing was needed to achieve low speed carrier approach. Non naval planes with conventional aerodynamic like F-15, F-16, MiG-29, Su-27 etc. - all have moderate wing sweep angle ~40-45 degrees.

Squeezing 9G at 450kts in real combat enviroment makes the plane a lot harder to kill with any weapon than one making 7.5G at 350kts - regardless of similar turn rate - real combat enviroment is rarely a honorable 1v1 duel.

 

It also gives the plane a lot easier time disengaging accelerating from 450kts to supersonic after unloading the plane or chasing enemy which is trying to disengage - if you start at 350kts the chances an enemy will flee or catch you are significantly bigger.

 

Maintaining 450kts allows also starting vertical maneuvers - like loop over the top. Maintaining 350kts barely gives any reserve.

 

Hornet's 7.5G is just a compromise - not some design feature. Non naval Hornets for Switzerland with uniform wing spar due to non-folded wings allows it to squeeze more G savely than naval variant with folded wings.

 

The whole 20 degrees low sweep angle wing of the Hornet is a compromise which makes plane slower and lowering it's acceleration due to increased drag but this wing was needed to achieve low speed carrier approach. Non naval planes with conventional aerodynamic like F-15, F-16, MiG-29, Su-27 etc. - all have moderate wing sweep angle ~40-45 degrees.

How long can you hold 9G at 450kts? Not the G's but the speed.

How long can you hold 9G at 450kts? Not the G's but the speed.

You can hold both until you run out of fuel or blackout.

No, you can't do it until you run out of fuel but it won't be long before you black out. Meanwhile the Hornet just keeps on turning and not losing much speed.

The Viper bleeds speed too fast to take advantgae of the higher G's it can pull. Add in blacking out too early and it makes the Hornet harder to beat than it should.

How long can you hold 9G at 450kts? Not the G's but the speed.

Up to about 10-15,000ft - in classic big mouth GE F-16C block 30 in light AA configuration? As long as pilot withstand the G force. Look at F-16 energy maneuvering chart - is can sustain 9G untill the end of gas up to 10-15k ft - bviously it depends on configuration, mass, even weather to some degree.

If you are not aware you can even accelerate - squeezing 9G at the same time - if you start pulling above 450kts at low alt.

F-16 is designed specifically to generate very low drag in turn, unstable configuration helps also decreasing AoA needed for specific G in contrast to stable F-15 or MiG-29. Some overweight strike variants like block 40 and 50 have harder time with additional mass neded for multirole applications, but the most common C variant - Block 30 and A Block 5/10 are universally praised by their pilots being the strongest dogfighters in existence untll Eurofighter entered service around 2004. F-16C Block 30 having the best T/W ratio excesive power and acceleration, better than MiG-29 or F-15, and Block 5/10 with "small tail" paying off in dogfight and having the lowest wing loading and instantenious turn rate among F-16 family.

I just tested. At 450knots in DCS you can sustain ~7.5g, so I was wrong. Have to get up to 500 knots to hold almost 9g.

This was at sea level with default weather on Caucasus map.

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At 450 knots Hornet holds ~8g, with the paddle (get your pitchforks), so that is the issue right there. The F-18 is beating the F-16 at its own game.

A few others sustained at ~100ft asl @ [450knots, 500knots]

F-18: 8.0g, 9.0g

F-16: 7.5g, 9.0g

F-15: 7.1g, 8.0g

M2K: 6.9g, 8.0g

Up to about 10-15,000ft - in classic big mouth GE F-16C block 30 in light AA configuration? As long as pilot withstand the G force. Look at F-16 energy maneuvering chart - is can sustain 9G untill the end of gas up to 10-15k ft - bviously it depends on configuration, mass, even weather to some degree.

 

If you are not aware you can even accelerate - squeezing 9G at the same time - if you start pulling above 450kts at low alt.

 

F-16 is designed specifically to generate very low drag in turn, unstable configuration helps also decreasing AoA needed for specific G in contrast to stable F-15 or MiG-29. Some overweight strike variants like block 40 and 50 have harder time with additional mass neded for multirole applications, but the most common C variant - Block 30 and A Block 5/10 are universally praised by their pilots being the strongest dogfighters in existence untll Eurofighter entered service around 2004. F-16C Block 30 having the best T/W ratio excesive power and acceleration, better than MiG-29 or F-15, and Block 5/10 with "small tail" paying off in dogfight and having the lowest wing loading and instantenious turn rate among F-16 family.

I agree with what you're saying but you can't be talking about the DCS Viper? Even leaving out the part about a block 30. So, yes in BMS and the real plane.

The DCS Viper appears to lose speed too fast in high G turns. If i'm wrong i'll accept it but if DCS is right then BMS is wrong. I'd sure like to know which one is right.

I just tested. At 450knots in DCS you can sustain ~7.5g, so I was wrong. Have to get up to 500 knots to hold almost 9g.

 

This was at sea level with default weather on Caucasus map.

 

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At 450 knots Hornet holds ~8g, with the paddle (get your pitchforks), so that is the issue right there. The F-18 is beating the F-16 at its own game.

 

A few others sustained at ~100ft asl @ [450knots, 500knots]

 

F-18: 8.0g, 9.0g

F-16: 7.5g, 9.0g

F-15: 7.1g, 8.0g

M2K: 6.9g, 8.0g

Thanks for testing.

The Hornet modeled in DCS could actually sustain higher turn rates than a Block 50 Viper. This is based on real world flight test. In an old document about the Super Hornet and the -402 motored Hornet you can see the 2 AAM 50% fuel sustained turn rates and when you look at the Hornet vs the HAF Block 50 Viper manual the Hornet does better at low altitude but worse as altitude goes up.

Yeah, Hornets aren't happy up high but you won't find a good Hornet pilot up there in a turn fight.

Call me crazy, but doesn't this EM chart show 9g at 430 knots at sea level, with about 23deg/s sustained turn? (this is the ps = 0 line)

redacted

Oh boy, our Viper would be a dogfighting monster then. I hope ED continues to work on the flight model.

Gavagai, be careful posting charts like that, remember rule 1.16.

Gavagai, be careful posting charts like that, remember rule 1.16.

Crap, are you serious? I can get in trouble for posting random EM diagrams from the internet?:helpsmilie: