Laser Maverick + TGP Switchology

I've been through a number of tutorials and documentation on this procedure, but I'm finding that I have to have the TGP as SOI before I'm allowed to fire a maverick, which is not covered anywhere. Am I doing something wrong?

In brief:

(1) I set up everything -- A/G mode, Master Arm on, Mav selected, laser code set, FLIR page open, Laser code set and armed etc. etc. Maverick page on left DDI, TGP on right.

(2) Find the target on the TGP. With moving target -- point track and designate.

(3) Switch to Maverick format on left DDI. Maverick uncages. Wait till in range.

(4) Press weapon release. Laser is firing. Maverick sees laser. But Maverick still crossed out and will not launch. (Also, there is the "X" on the maverick page showing the laser in the maverick FOV, but no solid box even though the laser is firing (flashing symbol).)

(5) SCS right to make TGP SOI again. All is good: weapon release launches maverick.

I find this highly repeatable -- that is, unless I make the TGP soi, I just cannot get the Maverick to launch. Whether or not the laser is on manual or auto.

Does it work this way for everyone? Or am I doing something wrong? None of the documentation or tutorials say that you have to go back to the TGP page to launch a maverick. They all seem to indicate you can launch even if the Maverick page is SOI.

No big deal either way. Just want to know if this is how it's supposed to work and the way it works for everyone, or I am missing something.

Missile not seeing laser is a troublesome issue and I have seen it. There is no problem firing missile with good laser track regardless of SOI or even if FLIR or MAV pages are displayed or not. I have shot AGM-65E with all four SOI options.

So I started from an air start and did minimal interaction to make a first attempt at lasing. WPDSG was used but FLIR was not. MAV was caged looking ahead with target ~30 deg low. HUD was SOI since it had not been changed. Lased and... no track.

Then I SOI MAV and lased again, since it autouncaged on SOI missile saw laser. So that makes sense, caged missile didn't track uncaged (and looking very close to spot) did.

SOI HUD with uncaged missile, good track again.

Undesignate and try to laser with FLIR without designated target, laser won't fire. Obviously no laser no track.

Seems to be a maximum amount of elevation difference between the scanning missile (sweeping back and forth) and laser spot which track can occur. I put missile sweeping and point laser far away, no track as expected. Creep the laser spot closer and closer until missile sees... happens about at an angle equal to 1.3-1.5 divisions on MAV page.

Maverick sees laser. But Maverick still crossed out

These are conflicting statements. The "X" indicates that missile does not see laser. The "X" may move to the correct angle to target but that it is because an external device is pointing missile. If an "X" is shown then missile is not tracking laser.

I think the problem is that the missile is not updating its pre-aimed direction when MAV not SOI. You can see this if you FLIR designate somewhere, SOI MAV and back to FLIR, and MAV will slew to the last designated point. Then FLIR designate another point and watch MAV remain aimed at previously designated point until the next time SOI MAV.

If this isn't a bug it's certainly not helpful. If MAV pre-aim is too far away from laser spot then missile won't see the laser. No laser no track no launch.

Hi Frederf,

Thanks for sharing your insight. I believe the issue I am describing may have only developed with the most recent update (Open Beta), based on speaking to some folks finding the same thing going on from where it did not before.

With the current Open Beta, assuming all the other ducks in a row, I can reliably and consistently fire laser Maverick on a moving point track as long, and only as long, as the TGP is SOI.

Conversely, in the exact same conditions, I cannot fire the Maverick if the Mav page is SOI.

The "X" indicates that missile does not see laser. The "X" may move to the correct angle to target but that it is because an external device is pointing missile. If an "X" is shown then missile is not tracking laser.

Yes, and this is the issue. Laser is firing. Upside down triangle on HUD at the right spot. X on Mav page on the right angle. But it's an "X" not an block. Switch SOI to TGP, and without anything else moving/changing (i.e., no update of Maverick seeker), the laser can now be seen and the Maverick can be fired.

I think the problem is that the missile is not updating its pre-aimed direction when MAV not SOI. You can see this if you FLIR designate somewhere, SOI MAV and back to FLIR, and MAV will slew to the last designated point. Then FLIR designate another point and watch MAV remain aimed at previously designated point until the next time SOI MAV.

 

If this isn't a bug it's certainly not helpful. If MAV pre-aim is too far away from laser spot then missile won't see the laser. No laser no track no launch.

This makes sense, and definitely I need to switch the SOI back to the Maverick page (and sometimes cage/uncage) to get the Maverick seeker to slew to the laser designation.

But still it will not fire until I switch SOI back to the TGP.

So earlier today we discussed this in another thread. I NEVER had to put the TDC on the FLIR page to fire the MAV-E. I even uploaded a couple of tracks where I am pretty sure the TDC stayed on the MAVERICK page. THEN, just tonight, I was playing with some friends, and I had this EXACT issue. Could not make the MAV-E pick up the laser without changing TDC to the FLIR page! Only difference was MP vs. SP. BUT for weeks we have been flying this SAME mission (AG Weapons Training) and I don't recall EVER having to do this. We're flying the STABLE version, so, for sure nothing changed since the update last Friday, and certainly nothing changed since I recorded my TRK files earlier today. I am baffled!

I attached the TRK in the other thread:

https://forums.eagle.ru/showthread.php?t=289113.

TDC DEFINITELY on the MAV_E page when it acquires the laser and fires. It was from an AIR START, in the CAUCAUSUS map, where our MP mission tonight is in the Persian Gulf from a HOT start from Parking... but I can't imagine either of those makes a difference, especially since it didn't happen previously in that PG mission.

Yes, it's weird.

I was just getting into learning the Hornet + Mav these last few days.

The day before yesterday, I thought I had figured it out. It worked following the tutorials.

Last night it did not. I thought I was missing a step that i had previously got right, so tried again and again. But nope. Then accidentally moved SOI back to TGP and voila! I assumed that I had been dojng this the previous night without realizing it and maybe missed a step in tutorials/document. But, checking the tutorials/docs again confirmed "no" to the second. And your report makes me thing "no" to the first as well -- it's possible I had it working the previous night because it did work as advertised the previous night? Could DCS have updated/changed silently in the background???

Yes, it's weird.

 

I was just getting into learning the Hornet + Mav these last few days.

 

The day before yesterday, I thought I had figured it out. It worked following the tutorials.

 

Last night it did not. I thought I was missing a step that i had previously got right, so tried again and again. But nope. Then accidentally moved SOI back to TGP and voila! I assumed that I had been dojng this the previous night without realizing it and maybe missed a step in tutorials/document. But, checking the tutorials/docs again confirmed "no" to the second. And your report makes me thing "no" to the first as well -- it's possible I had it working the previous night because it did work as advertised the previous night? Could DCS have updated/changed silently in the background???

Interestingly, last night, one of the guys I fly with said that HE had to do the same thing to get the MAV-E to fire. Not sure WHEN the issue cropped up for him, but was sure that when we were going through MAV-E's I was telling everyone to keep the TDC on the MAV page as it was working for me.

yes, its bugged

OK, I did some experimentation. There are a LOT of variables so I do not pretend to have tested all cases:

EDIT: OOPS.. I watched the MAV_TDC track again and it looks like I DID set the code in the air....and it failed, but it WORKED in the second TRK.. Now I am really confused..

1. My original TRK was an AIR start with default 1688 code. Worked with TDC in MAV DDI

2. The first TRK attached was a GROUND start of the same mission, setting the Laser code on the ground to a different value, "1776". It did NOT work with the TDC on the MAV page. I switched codes several times in the air, back to 1688 and others as well, and in all cases it WORKED with the TDC on the MAV page. - OOPS no I guess I didn't

3. Second TRK, I set code 1776 AFTER takeoff. IT WORKED with TDC on MAV Page. - Don't know why it worked this time

So.. it SEEMS that setting a MAV Laser Code on the ground that is different from the DEFAULT SEEMS to show this issue. Changing CODES after takeoff seems to allow you to have the TDC on the MAV page. More cases need to be tried. I will say, that last night when it happened to me I also set the 1776 code ON THE GROUND before takeoff.

---Well not really :( What DOES seem to work is when you get the issue of not being able to get the MAVE to pick up the Laser with TDC on MAV page, if you AGAIN do a CODE change, it seems to work..

Recluse_MAVE_TDC.trk

Recluse_MAVE_TDC2.trk

OK, I did some experimentation. There are a LOT of variables so I do not pretend to have tested all cases:

 

 

1. My original TRK was an AIR start with default 1688 code. Worked with TDC in MAV DDI

 

 

2. The first TRK attached was a GROUND start of the same mission, setting the Laser code ON THE GROUND to a different value, "1776". It did NOT work with the TDC on the MAV page. I switched codes several times in the air, back to 1688 and others as well, and in all cases it WORKED with the TDC on the MAV page.

 

 

3. Second TRK, I set code 1776 AFTER takeoff. IT WORKED with TDC on MAV Page.

 

 

So.. it SEEMS that setting a MAV Laser Code on the ground that is different from the DEFAULT SEEMS to show this issue. Changing CODES after takeoff seems to allow you to have the TDC on the MAV page. More cases need to be tried. I will say, that last night when it happened to me I also set the 1776 code ON THE GROUND before takeoff.

It's either more complicated or more simple than that, unfortunately ...

ALL my runs were done with AIR start using the default 1688 code (i.e., your case I). And at least since a couple of days ago, cannot fire from Mav DDI as SOI.

It's either more complicated or more simple than that, unfortunately ...

 

ALL my runs were done with AIR start using the default 1688 code (i.e., your case I). And at least since a couple of days ago, cannot fire from Mav DDI as SOI.

WOW... OK.. back to the drawing board :)

Try this, though.. change the CODE in FLIGHT (even if you just reset to 1688 again) and see what happens.. I just flew the PG mission where this happened last night, and even entering the CODE in flight didn't help, but CHANGING the CODE again in flight did... I guess it might just be easier to put the TDC on the FLIR page :)

WOW... OK.. back to the drawing board :)

 

 

Try this, though.. change the CODE in FLIGHT (even if you just reset to 1688 again) and see what happens.. I just flew the PG mission where this happened last night, and even entering the CODE in flight didn't help, but CHANGING the CODE again in flight did... I guess it might just be easier to put the TDC on the FLIR page :)

Ok, will try this tonight and report back here.

Thanks for working on this issue to pin it down!

Ok, will try this tonight and report back here.

 

Thanks for working on this issue to pin it down!

...and here's another worthless datapoint...

The stuff that seemed to be working and reproducible in one mission on the Caucasus map, DOESN'T seem to be working in another mission on the Persian Gulf map!! The TDC on Mav Page bug seems very persistent on the PG map vs. Caucasus. So strange.

Recluse,

FYI, I did this in SP and it was working without TDC having to be in FLIR until around this past week. Now It has to be, even in SP.

v6,

boNes

There is definitely something wrong with the AGM-65E.

As it happens, this has been reported:

https://forums.eagle.ru/showthread.php?t=288438

But then someone marked as it " [CAN NOT REPRODUCE]".

Could we get a tester to look at this again? Or get some other tester to look at it?

As it happens, this has been reported:

 

https://forums.eagle.ru/showthread.php?t=288438

 

But then someone marked as it " [CAN NOT REPRODUCE]".

 

Could we get a tester to look at this again? Or get some other tester to look at it?

Problem is it seems so intermittent! As in my TRK files, sometime it WORKS perfectly, other times not. Interestingly it works better in one theater than another as well. SO STRANGE.

Recluse,

 

 

FYI, I did this in SP and it was working without TDC having to be in FLIR until around this past week. Now It has to be, even in SP.

 

 

v6,

boNes

Yeah, I did most of my testing in SP, but experienced it in MP as well. I wonder if it makes a difference that the mission that it seems to work in consistently was created PRIOR to the patch, where the other mission in the PG where it doesn't work was edited AFTER the patch. Wouldn't think it would be a MB issue. I will try building a new Caucasus mission and try it out.

IN the mission, F18GBU6_Test_F18 with an AIR START F/A-18, it always works with default 1688 (for me). Target WP's at 4,5,6 along with other targets on the Old Kobuleti base. Ground start in F18GBU6_Tarawa yields mixed results.

F18GBU6_TEST_F18.miz

F18GBU6_Tarawa.miz

And now, for your viewing pleasure, 2 TRK from the Persian Gulf, showing DEFINITIVELY that.... Sometimes it works, sometimes it doesn't..:huh:

At first, I was thinking it was a RANGE thing as I could get the lock in the MAV DDI at shorter ranges...BUT then I couldn't get it at all.

In the second TRK I made multiple passes. At the end of the 2nd TRK, you can see that I could toggle between the MAV page and the TPOD and LOCK/UNLOCK all the way in...

Very odd. I think I am just going to move TDC to the FLIR page ALL THE TIME and be done with it.

Recluse_MAVE_PG.trk

Recluse_MAVE_PG2.trk

Excellent forensics!

I think you should post these tracks to the bug thread, b/c it seems that ED testers failed to explore the issue sufficiently to reproduce the issue, and this will certainly help them (which, of course, helps us!).

https://forums.eagle.ru/showthread.php?t=288438

OK I posted. The forum won't let you post TRKs to multiple threads, so I referenced this one..

OK.. so after a lot of back and forth, in the BUG thread it seemed to be Operator Error on my part. It now works reliably for me (TDC in MAV DDI).

I always tend to POINT TRACK the target (though it is not necessary for stationary objects). Once in POINT TRACK, you must do a TDC Depress again to DESIGNATE the point tracked target (the little offset cursor appears).

SImilarly, even without Point Track, you need to always Designate with TDC depress whenever slewing the FLIR to a new position. I was pretty sure I was doing that all the time, but when reviewing my TRK files, I found that often after POINT TRACK I was not doing the extra TDC depress. Lately, WHENEVER I do a simple TDC DEPRESS or TDC depress after POINT TRACK (even if I have done it once already) I can reliably lock with the TDC on the MAV page.

Sometimes it seems that using WP Designate doesn't work the first time and I see this behavior. Repeating it or doing a TDC Depress (shouldn't be necessary) fixes it. ALWAYS TDC Depress if moving to POINT Track.

I still think it is ODD that the MAV seeker is still looking RIGHT AT the target but doesn't pick up the laser unless TDC is in the FLIR DDI if the second TDC depress isn't done.