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What does the guy up front do?


WelshZeCorgi

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He finds targets and shoots them.

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Other than be a backup pilot and guide the antitank missiles, what are the responsibilities of the guy up front (what is he called, a WSO?)

I'm also wondering about that. The front pit seems a bit empty in terms of systems :(

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Selfies, vids for his YT channel, that sort of thing.

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- Observation (Better spot than the pilot)

- Management of the weapons systems --> aiming+ firing ATGMs

- Management of the passive & active defence systems (flares,...)

- Radio management ?

That's kinda disappointing. No navigation work at all :(

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That's kinda disappointing. No navigation work at all :(

 

The navigation system is only present on the pilot place (doppler navigation system, navigation screen - via the paper map on the dashboard,...).

If you are used as an observer in the front seat (gunner), especially in hostiles areas, you can not have your eyes looking on the map inside the cockpit...ok ok , a woman can do...because she can do two things at once ! ;)

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The official term for the gunner in Russian is "pilot-operator". Traditionally, the actual pilot is the crew commander, and thus more junior pilots sat out front.

 

 

The pilot's duties are to fly the helicopter, navigate, and execute attack runs with unguided forward firing and free-fall weapons. The operator's job consists mainly of spotting targets visually or with the camera, steering the pilot onto these targets, and providing the crew with a complete picture of the battlefield situation. They are also entirely responsible for the Shturm/Ataka employment except for the trigger press, and can level bomb using the bombsight, and depending on the crew contract can provide additional services as the two see fit, like low altitude or dead reckoning navigation, radio management, etc.

 

 

Basically, it's not much different from the RIO in the F-14 or the WSO on the F-15E. They might twiddle thumbs more than the pilot during cruise, but are worth their weight in gold in combat.

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I read somewhere that the guidance system for ataka missiles is basically a upside-down periscope, with a simple camera, no laser and no thermals... the gunner needs to keep the camera pointed to target and the missile will follow. Is it really that simple?

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I read somewhere that the guidance system for ataka missiles is basically a upside-down periscope, with a simple camera, no laser and no thermals... the gunner needs to keep the camera pointed to target and the missile will follow. Is it really that simple?

 

Yeah, SACLOS guidance is that "simple", the usual problems are accounting for motion or vibration in the firing platform, I assume that the Mi24 sight is at least somewhat stabilized though.

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For navigation input. I don’t see any navigation system ADF or Doppler instrument for input in front seat. So I guess for any Navigation correction in instrument we should ask for drive hold it to front seat operator and focus on the navigation settings.

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Yes, the operator is in control of the machine gun in these.

 

You can read more about it here (use Google Translate for the Russian parts), but in short form the machine gun was said to be largely useless by pilots and operators who flew on both the Mi-24P and Mi-24V, and they asked Belsimtek to model the Mi-24P instead as the 30mm gun was very well-regarded. Other factors were the ergonomics of the front cockpit in the Mi-24P being a lot better should the person want to fly the helicopter from there, and the ability for the pilot to employ the entire range of armaments without being overly reliant on another player or AI, which is important for single player.

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Basically, it's not much different from the RIO in the F-14 or the WSO on the F-15E. They might twiddle thumbs more than the pilot during cruise, but are worth their weight in gold in combat.

 

In early jets 60s/70s when tech was crude and required more micromanagement the WSO had a use. Pretty much since the 80s they are dead weight, hardly ''worth their weight in gold''. Thus the increasing absence of two seaters. A F-16/F-18 can do all the same stuff a F-15E can... miraculously with only one person. On most helos their main use is directing wire guided missiles and aiming swivel guns (both of which are a little awkward to do while flying) and keeping the pilot company.

 

With a fixed gun like on the Mi-24P, the main reason the second guy is there... is because removing him would require a complete redesign of the forward fuselage. Much simpler to keep him and let him play with the missiles.

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I'll have to disagree. In all of history, we've only had exactly one operational single-seat attack helicopter, and combat experience with it led the designers to ditch the concept and move towards a traditional two-pilot arrangement.

 

As for the fixed-wing aircraft, it's worth remembering that the F-15E is about a decade newer than both the F-16 and F/A-18, and that even aircraft introduced after 2000 have full mission capable twin-seat variants that are preferred for complex tasks. Aircraft like the Rafale B, F/A-18F, Su-30SM/MK, A-29B... Even the Gripen NG, still in development, is receiving a hefty cash injection into the project by Brazil in order to design a twin-seater JAS-39F specialised for complex mission sets where a single pilot would be overwhelmed.

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and the ability for the pilot to employ the entire range of armaments without being overly reliant on another player or AI, which is important for single player.

That's why I'm so disappointed, because I fly multicrew and the Hind we're getting doesn't seem to offer much in that regard :(

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Google Translate

 

… Other factors were the ergonomics of the front cockpit in the Mi-24P being a lot better should the person want to fly the helicopter from there, and the ability for the pilot to employ the entire range of armaments without being overly reliant on another player or AI, which is important for single player.

The translation is a little flawed. The following would be more correct.

… Other factors were the ergonomics of the front cockpit in the Mi-24P being a lot better should the person want to fly the helicopter from there, and the ability for the operator to employ the entire range of armaments, which is important for multiplayer (MP).

 

Original in Russian

 

Перевод немного некорректный. Более правильно будет следующее.

 

Sorry, I don't speak English, so I use Google Translate.

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In early jets 60s/70s when tech was crude and required more micromanagement the WSO had a use. Pretty much since the 80s they are dead weight, hardly ''worth their weight in gold''. Thus the increasing absence of two seaters. A F-16/F-18 can do all the same stuff a F-15E can... miraculously with only one person.

bit of a hyperbolic statement, as you're just trading wetware for hardware.

 

also the marine corps and navy both use 2 seat bugs for their specialist strike squadrons

moving forward as the fight moves more and more towards the sensor level it may well be fair to say that it's the pilot not wso that is going extinct. the f-35 pilot will spend more time being goose than maverick.


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I'm kindof surprised at the number of people who seem to be totally undervaluing situational awareness and the "Mk.1 Eyeball". Seriously, having crew (human or AI) who can spot potential threats or targets will make flying much much easier.

 

The ability to spot a threat visually is the first step in evading it. It is like an RWR or MWS! For these older aircraft it is critically important, but there are also a number of cases where pilots used their eyes to spot SAM launches while flying more modern aircraft. Having a crew member who is dedicated to spotting threats and deploy countermeasures is a tremendously important and useful role!

 

Hopefully the code they are making for realistic spotting of vehicles will find its way back into the Mi-8 as well.

 

P.S.

I remember I used to fly the sim Gunship! from the gunner position constantly in order to provide this spotting role - which was important because it was based on a tank sim and vehicles could sneak up on you using trees as cover... closing the last 800 metres to get into range and ambush you if you had your back turned... the rainy forested German landscapes were... well, intense... I still remember vividly the thudding of the rotor blades as I panned back and forth scanning the terrain for intermittent contacts with vehicles...

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I'm kindof surprised at the number of people who seem to be totally undervaluing situational awareness and the "Mk.1 Eyeball". Seriously, having crew (human or AI) who can spot potential threats or targets will make flying much much easier.

 

The ability to spot a threat visually is the first step in evading it. It is like an RWR or MWS! For these older aircraft it is critically important, but there are also a number of cases where pilots used their eyes to spot SAM launches while flying more modern aircraft. Having a crew member who is dedicated to spotting threats and deploy countermeasures is a tremendously important and useful role!

 

Hopefully the code they are making for realistic spotting of vehicles will find its way back into the Mi-8 as well.

 

 

That's the thing, we have no idea If the AI gunner, will call for SAMs, AAA, targets, etc. We need to get this info from ED or Belsimtek.

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I'll have to disagree. In all of history, we've only had exactly one operational single-seat attack helicopter, and combat experience with it led the designers to ditch the concept and move towards a traditional two-pilot arrangement.

 

As for the fixed-wing aircraft, it's worth remembering that the F-15E is about a decade newer than both the F-16 and F/A-18, and that even aircraft introduced after 2000 have full mission capable twin-seat variants that are preferred for complex tasks. Aircraft like the Rafale B, F/A-18F, Su-30SM/MK, A-29B... Even the Gripen NG, still in development, is receiving a hefty cash injection into the project by Brazil in order to design a twin-seater JAS-39F specialised for complex mission sets where a single pilot would be overwhelmed.

 

Something Mover said comes to mind in response to this comment: "No single-seat fighter pilot has ever said he wished he had a WSO." Not sure that's a direct quote but that's the gist.

 

 

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I'm kindof surprised at the number of people who seem to be totally undervaluing situational awareness and the "Mk.1 Eyeball". Seriously, having crew (human or AI) who can spot potential threats or targets will make flying much much easier.

Well, the tactical significance of the additional pair of eyeballs is indeed pretty huge, but for the gameplay it doesn't add much.

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DCS Panavia Tornado (IDS) really needs to be a thing!

 

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