A 109´s "pilot" needs to thanks by this wonderfull sim and plane.

IIRC he switches to 2 hands at some point. But don't know if its still this way.

IIRC he switches to 2 hands at some point. But don't know if its still this way.

If you'd ask me it should be: first with two hands, because of the high speed hence the forces, then with one hand as the speed and forces are getting lower or it could continue with two hands but faster with pulling. Anyways, these high stick forces should occur after 700km/h not as low as 300km/h.

How about another button to simulate when you have 2 hands on the stick. And with that button activated, no other controls (that would require that 2nd hand) could be manipulated. The button activation would allow for more pull and is direct feedback on when it is in use.

How about another button to simulate when you have 2 hands on the stick. And with that button activated, no other controls (that would require that 2nd hand) could be manipulated. The button activation would allow for more pull and is direct feedback on when it is in use.

Was suggested at some point yes. As usual the discussions here are cyclic and if you hang around long enough people seem to have the same ones over and over :D

How about another button to simulate when you have 2 hands on the stick. And with that button activated, no other controls (that would require that 2nd hand) could be manipulated. The button activation would allow for more pull and is direct feedback on when it is in use.

Sure.. that could be a workaround.

Was suggested at some point yes. As usual the discussions here are cyclic and if you hang around long enough people seem to have the same ones over and over :D

I wonder why :D

I wonder why :D

me too :D

me too :D

Now its the awfull plane that i ever fly!

Now its the awfull plane that i ever fly!

I don't understand this stubbornness with the stick forces.. on ED's side.

If you'd ask me it should be: first with two hands, because of the high speed hence the forces, then with one hand as the speed and forces are getting lower or it could continue with two hands but faster with pulling. Anyways, these high stick forces should occur after 700km/h not as low as 300km/h.

Based on my experience with un-assisted gliders, if you're just controlling via pulleys and such (as was the case with most/all these older planes) I can see needing both hands for 300kmh.

Based on my experience with un-assisted gliders, if you're just controlling via pulleys and such (as was the case with most/all these older planes) I can see needing both hands for 300kmh.

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No, it should not. Different planes have different stick force gradients at high Mach numbers.

Some times ago I wrote a detailed post about Bf-109 controllability, where was shown that at low and moderate Mach numbers Bf-109 had the same optimal force per 1 g (3-4 kg recommended) and only at high Mach numbers this gradient became significantly higher. I know at least two cases (one of them with Erich Brunotte) when the plane diving from the altitude seemed to be out of control and unrecoverable, but at lower it was possible to pull it from dive.

 

Other planes (Fw-190, P-51 and Spitfire) were not so tough in high Mach diving, and, for example, P-51 with CoG aft was known as having dangerously light forces at the stick with reverse force gradient (the stick force became lower or even negative as the stick is pulled increasing load factor ).

Sure.. but 300km/h IAS is not THAT high of a Mach number. And the pilots are testifying that only after 700km IAS they need to pull with both hands out of a dive. We find the actual implementation of stick forces a bit exaggerated though..

Yo-Yo, would a double arm simulation be possible?

Player presses a button, then the stick gets after 1 second roughly double arm strengh applied on roll and pitch axis as long as this button is pressed. But as both hands are now on the stick, no other command, except those on the stick(weapons, bomb release), are possible. When the button is released, back to single arm stick force and after 1 second other commands are again possible.

So as long as this double arm is "on" you can't change throttle, trim, flaps, etc. because you have no virtual hand to manipulate that stuff. This would prevent a permanent "on" switch. And it would also increase the possibility of easily overstressing the airframe, as is was possible when the K4 was released.

Fox

What benefit would it give? The possibility to rip off the wings? :) And, by the way, the force limit now is closer to double arm force.

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What benefit would it give? The possibility to rip off the wings? :) And, by the way, the force limit now is closer to double arm force.

Please approach this from a player's perspective. I'm for full realism. And if I was sitting in this aircraft in reality and would notice that the controls get so stiff that I can't handle it with one arm, I would intuitively use my other arm to compensate this, but that would come with a drawback in other areas.

Well, the wing rip off would happen if you yank the stick around, but if you're carefull you can ride at the edge, like you can do it with the Spitfire. I'm not asking to bend realism, but to add real possibilities.

Fox

You already have this opportunity. Two-hands mode is engaged if you overcome one-hand limit. The control became more sluggish. You still have the opportunity to recover, but pilots of the planes that have less stiff controls will have advantage. Like in RL.

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Unfortunately i have to agree the criticism here. Had very long pause of playing this sim, decided to give it a go to see how it feels now. For 109, stick forces at slow speeds seems to be exaggerated compared to all books i've read about it. Currently even as slow as 350km/h elevator control feels rubberish and it takes too long (from virtual pilot) to push or pull the stick full to front for example. I don't use any curves and i have "full lenght" joystick.

I have no problem with forces at higher speeds as 109 is well known for this behaviour but i really hope some re-check for forces at lower speed would be done. Until then it just feels weird and doesen't compare very well for real life accounts. Wich is sad especially because otherwise DCS 109 feels the most complete/accurate Messer in any sim so far in my opinion.

Unfortunately i have to agree the criticism here. Had very long pause of playing this sim, decided to give it a go to see how it feels now. For 109, stick forces at slow speeds seems to be exaggerated compared to all books i've read about it. Currently even as slow as 350km/h elevator control feels rubberish and it takes too long (from virtual pilot) to push or pull the stick full to front for example. I don't use any curves and i have "full lenght" joystick.

 

 

I have no problem with forces at higher speeds as 109 is well known for this behaviour but i really hope some re-check for forces at lower speed would be done. Until then it just feels weird and doesen't compare very well for real life accounts. Wich is sad especially because otherwise DCS 109 feels the most complete/accurate Messer in any sim so far in my opinion.

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Completely agree.

 

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Less feels, more data.

Less feels, more data.

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