Su-27 instruments functions (?) - Page 17 - ED Forums
 


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Old 04-17-2020, 06:29 AM   #161
N22YF
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Thanks for the help, Ironhand!

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First, you need stop thinking in western terms.
Ah I was just referring to DCS commands by their names in DCS - not implying that I expect the Su-27's radar to necessarily operate like a Western aircraft's.

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There is no RWS mode available in this cockpit. In ОБЗОР (ОБЗ) or Survey (Scan) mode, you are provided range, speed, altitude, and aspect which is more a function of TWS than RWS. From my reading, it appears that the difference between ОБЗ (Survey) and СНП (Сопровождение на Проходе)--loosely translated as Passage Tracking--is one of function rather than type. In the former you are scanning the sky in general building tracks of what the radar "sees". In the latter, you have designated one of those returns as the target and the radar complex begins tracking its passage through the sky (Passage Tracking). This is not how it works in the sim's cockpit but, based on my reading, this seems to be the case. It's the designation of a return as a target that makes the difference. But, of course, I could be misinterpreting things.
Looking at the Su-27SK manual again, I see that the list of radar modes in 5.1.2 includes СНП and РНП (STT) but not ОБЗ, so it would make sense that СНП and ОБЗ are not separately-selectable modes as they are in DCS. Interesting! (I do also wonder how the MiG-29S switches into СНП2 mode - I don't see any switches for this sort of thing on its radar panel - but I suppose DCS could be inaccurately modeling that as well.)

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Are you referring to the range scale? If so, as with the above, I have found no mention of a distinct switch to control this. My assumption is that it is tied to another action such as manually entering the expected target range. Or it could be a matter of bumping the designator cursor up against the top or bottom of the HUD. I don't know but, at any rate, I have not noticed a reference to that function.
Right, the range scale! Not all modes have a designator cursor, so relying on bumping that up and down wouldn't be sufficient in all cases. But I could indeed see it being tied to another action as you suggest, or perhaps automatically set in different situations (such as different modes) without a way to manually adjust. For example in this video supposedly from a Su-27SM (which of course could be different than our -27S), the range scale appears to me to be set at 150 km (which is the same range scale shown in figure 21 in the Su-27SK manual of the HUD in ОБЗОР mode) even though his target is much closer.
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Old 04-17-2020, 07:27 AM   #162
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In a way our DCS Flanker already does some of the SNP functionality during the "normal" observe mode, because the targets on the HDD already are shown with speed vector and altitude, so they are already tracked.

Unfortunately the systems are very basic, but ED has no interest in making it realistic. What they have no problem with is introducing unrealistic limitations...
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Old 04-17-2020, 12:08 PM   #163
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Looking at the Su-27SK manual again, I see that the list of radar modes in 5.1.2 includes СНП and РНП (STT) but not ОБЗ, so it would make sense that СНП and ОБЗ are not separately-selectable modes as they are in DCS. Interesting! (I do also wonder how the MiG-29S switches into СНП2 mode - I don't see any switches for this sort of thing on its radar panel - but I suppose DCS could be inaccurately modeling that as well.)
In fact, it's there is as ОБЗ in DCS is short for ОБЗОР in the manual, which means search mode.

Reading the same manual (though I don't speak Russian), chapter 5.1.2. does seem to indicate that these two modes from the DCS are more closely related on the real thing (i.e. basically the same mode where the radar would track and display up to ten targets) and there doesn't seem to be any special indication between them on the HUD like what we have.

The one option you have is to switch between auto and manual lock modes (5.1.7. ЗАХВ АВТ-РУЧН) where you choose whether the system would automatically transition to STT (РНП) mode at some point (I guess by prioritizing and choosing the fastest approaching one of the semi-tracked targets) - which is kind of like the СНП mode in DCS - or you select the target manually via the cursor control - which would be the ОБЗ mode in DCS.

If ED would remove these indications from the HUD, they'd have to animate the appropriate cockpit switches and players would need to check these to know in which mode they are.

Regarding the range scale, IIRC these were fixed/set on the MiG-29 depending on the SUV mode so I guess the same logic is present here.
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Old 04-17-2020, 04:09 PM   #164
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...


Ah I was just referring to DCS commands by their names in DCS - not implying that I expect the Su-27's radar to necessarily operate like a Western aircraft's...
Sorry. It's become sort of a knee jerk reaction. Over the years I've had so many people come to me confused because of their "western" expectations. Didn't know how involved you were with the Su-27.



Quote:
Looking at the Su-27SK manual again, I see that the list of radar modes in 5.1.2 includes СНП and РНП (STT) but not ОБЗ, so it would make sense that СНП and ОБЗ are not separately-selectable modes as they are in DCS. Interesting! (I do also wonder how the MiG-29S switches into СНП2 mode - I don't see any switches for this sort of thing on its radar panel - but I suppose DCS could be inaccurately modeling that as well.)
The manual does refer to ОБЗОР in a number of places but, as noted, it seems to be part of a continuum. I was going to bring up the manual's descriptions of available radar modes in my initial response but decided to keep it simple. But basically, you start in ОБЗОР, move to СНП, move to РНП (STT), and, finally, move to ДНП (Discrete-Continuous Illumination) once the missile is in the air. The last mode, КВО (КВази Обзора) or Quasi Survey (Search/Scan), is a separate automatic function of the radar complex providing range information, when slaved to the optical complex.


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Right, the range scale! Not all modes have a designator cursor, so relying on bumping that up and down wouldn't be sufficient in all cases. But I could indeed see it being tied to another action as you suggest, or perhaps automatically set in different situations (such as different modes) without a way to manually adjust. For example in this video supposedly from a Su-27SM (which of course could be different than our -27S), the range scale appears to me to be set at 150 km (which is the same range scale shown in figure 21 in the Su-27SK manual of the HUD in ОБЗОР mode) even though his target is much closer.
That may well be the case. I haven't run across any mention of change range scales.
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Old 04-18-2020, 10:59 PM   #165
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Thanks Dudikoff and Ironhand!

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But basically, you start in ОБЗОР, move to СНП, move to РНП (STT), and, finally, move to ДНП (Discrete-Continuous Illumination) once the missile is in the air.
I don't think I've seen any mention in the manual of a dichotomy between ОБЗ and СНП modes, so I'm wondering if СНП could even be a sub-mode of ОБЗ (that is, you're still in ОБЗ when you're operating in СНП mode). Are you sure it's even possible to operate in ОБЗ and not in СНП mode?

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The one option you have is to switch between auto and manual lock modes (5.1.7. ЗАХВ АВТ-РУЧН) where you choose whether the system would automatically transition to STT (РНП) mode at some point (I guess by prioritizing and choosing the fastest approaching one of the semi-tracked targets) - which is kind of like the СНП mode in DCS - or you select the target manually via the cursor control - which would be the ОБЗ mode in DCS.
I looked over the discussion of the ЗАХВ АВТ-РУЧН switch (although did you mean 5.1.5 instead of 5.1.7?). I read it as more of an option of СНП mode—in ОБЗ mode in DCS you still have to manually aim the radar as opposed to it automatically following the selected target in СНП—but perhaps that's the closest thing the Su-27 has to a manual mode switch.
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Old 04-20-2020, 06:33 AM   #166
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...and СНП (Сопровождение на Проходе)--loosely translated as Passage Tracking--is one of function rather than type. In the former you are scanning the sky in general building tracks of what the radar "sees". In the latter, you have designated one of those returns as the target and the radar complex begins tracking its passage through the sky (Passage Tracking).
This is probably where the radar creates a 'track file', possibly in a similar way to the track files created by radars in western aircraft. Interesting. I wonder if this is a half-way-house between what western radar types describe as range-while-search and track-while-scan, only with the limitation that the track file generated by the N-01 doesn't update sufficiently to allow for missile launch, which requires single-target-track.

As an aside, is there an English translation of the manual available on line somewhere?
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Old 04-20-2020, 07:12 AM   #167
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This is probably where the radar creates a 'track file', possibly in a similar way to the track files created by radars in western aircraft. Interesting. I wonder if this is a half-way-house between what western radar types describe as range-while-search and track-while-scan, only with the limitation that the track file generated by the N-01 doesn't update sufficiently to allow for missile launch, which requires single-target-track.
The SNP term is definitely related to creating and updating of the target tracks and I presume is a standard part of search mode as there's no switch for it or any indication anywhere.

The tracks seem to be well enough to indicate course, range and altitude (as indicated on the tactical display) which should be enough to calculate a missile interception path, I presume.

But, at the time the SUV-27 (WCS) was built, there were no ARH missiles in service, only SARH so the target needs to be illuminated for the missile seeker, hence why the RNP mode (STT) is required for the missile launch. If they had such, the SUV could have been modified or modernized to allow for this (i.e. to make possible to select which targets will be engaged from the tracked ones, to send multiple mid-course updates to missiles, etc.) as happened with the later export variants (not the base Su-27SK).
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Old 04-20-2020, 07:29 AM   #168
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As an aside, is there an English translation of the manual available on line somewhere?
The only one I've found is this one which was translated by a robot. Better than nothing though!
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Old 04-20-2020, 09:02 AM   #169
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The only one I've found is this one which was translated by a robot. Better than nothing though!
Outstanding, thanks very much. Definitely a machine translation but good enough to get a good idea of what the manual means.
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Old 04-20-2020, 08:27 PM   #170
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Thanks Dudikoff and Ironhand!



I don't think I've seen any mention in the manual of a dichotomy between ОБЗ and СНП modes, so I'm wondering if СНП could even be a sub-mode of ОБЗ (that is, you're still in ОБЗ when you're operating in СНП mode). Are you sure it's even possible to operate in ОБЗ and not in СНП mode?
...
For that matter, you don't see a HUD indication of either "mode" because there isn't a modal distinction. Fig 21 (I believe) shows the HUD for "Targetting" and Survey (Scan)--ОБЗ. There is no mode indication.

The manual does, however, specify ОБЗОР in several places. #18 in 5.14.1 is one such instance as is Figure 21, of course.

Attached is my translation--incomplete and definitely a WIP
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File Type: pdf Section 5-5.14.1 Incomplete.pdf (1.47 MB, 35 views)
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