insane roll rate - totally unrealistic

Tottaly agree. Someone has really screwed the Russian national dog breed. This is absurd. Mig-21 used to be such a great sim!

I don't mind the roll behaviour at the moment (although it does seem to lack inertia), but would like the pitch "nodding" looked at.

+1, indeed

None is debating the "Roll Rate" but rather the rate the roll develops by very small inputs which make the aircraft unstable and very sensitive. Roll rate may be fine but roll acceleration and deceleration is totally wrong.

Yeah I think the devs need to make some definitive statement on the FM. The FM shouldn't be something that is up for debate, if they need to tweak it fine. But it would be nice to be given some clarity as to how the real aircraft performs instead of having to sift through everyone's opinion (qualified or not) on the forums I find it very frustrating sometimes.

Dolphin already came out and said that agility/stability would be tweaked after the patch that influences Starforce would be out of the door and stable.

The problem are not the figures that Leatherneck uses (Novak's arguments are strong and accurate ) but that Vmax is achieved from the first roll input, which is literally impossible.

What the most accurate curve is only a real MiG-21 pilot can answer. Thank god that they have one that can easily mount a GoPro in a UM to check what the real roll acceleration/deceleration is. :)

How it's possible? With mine at 0 curvature is definetly too sensitive, too unstable.:joystick:

And the roll rate is insane

I don't know. Maybe if we compare our setups it might shed some light.

I have a warthog with no extension, no curves and a bit of fancy grease in the base to reduce static friction.

I give it a small roll input and yeah it rolls fast but when I return to centre it.... stops rolling as you'd expect.

It looks just like it does from camera shots in the real thing.

As for the inertia issue well. It is an extremely narrow aircraft with small wings and large ailerons I would say that a fast, almost inertia-less feel to the roll is to be expected?

The "nodding" I am experiencing but that's an issue to be solved by making correctly coordinated turns. With finesse it flies, in my view, quite realistically.

Of course I am not a real MiG-21 pilot, I've never even seen one fly in real life so I may be uninformed but I'm not experiencing the problem.

^ +1

I to have a warthog with no extension, curves 5 Pitch, 10 Roll (just to smooth it out a little, perfectly controllable with 0) and a bit of grease also.

I don't know. Maybe if we compare our setups it might shed some light.

 

I have a warthog with no extension, no curves and a bit of fancy grease in the base to reduce static friction.

 

I give it a small roll input and yeah it rolls fast but when I return to centre it.... stops rolling as you'd expect.

 

It looks just like it does from camera shots in the real thing.

 

As for the inertia issue well. It is an extremely narrow aircraft with small wings and large ailerons I would say that a fast, almost inertia-less feel to the roll is to be expected?

 

The "nodding" I am experiencing but that's an issue to be solved by making correctly coordinated turns. With finesse it flies, in my view, quite realistically.

 

Of course I am not a real MiG-21 pilot, I've never even seen one fly in real life so I may be uninformed but I'm not experiencing the problem.

I've tried with my hotas coguar and with my T.16000m.

Also with the smallest input i got a fast reaction, a way too fast reaction...

Look at this video:

From 1:20 to 1:40 the takeoff and later. Look the stick and the aircraft.

DCS, since few updates ago, effectively prevents you from using curves with FFB.

More info:

https://forums.eagle.ru/showpost.php?p=2999844&postcount=4

If max roll rate is achieved without pushing the stick to the limit, it's probably a good idea to lower the saturation of the axis.

If max roll rate is achieved without pushing the stick to the limit, it's probably a good idea to lower the saturation of the axis.

I am not sure is about axis or ailerons deflection, I didn't test it. If is the later then the saturation tweak will only hide the problem.

I am not sure but the Mig21 feels like a paper plane ? Dolphin is a the real pilot and I would go with his updates but somehow the flight I did a few minutes was like flying a paper plane.

DCS, since few updates ago, effectively prevents you from using curves with FFB.

 

More info:

https://forums.eagle.ru/showpost.php?p=2999844&postcount=4

This is not new, it is like that since ... dunno, since the Wright Brothers.

I've tried with my hotas coguar and with my T.16000m.

Also with the smallest input i got a fast reaction, a way too fast reaction...

Look at this video:

From 1:20 to 1:40 the takeoff and later. Look the stick and the aircraft.

Yes I accept that the stick deflection on the desktop is much smaller than on the real thing but our sticks are quite different of course

Which of your sticks do you find gives you better control?

Would you say the deflections as a fraction are bigger or smaller than in DCS? When you talk about % then it doesn't matter if the joystick tube is a centimeter or a kilometer long, 5% is 5%.

There is another consideration on a "wiggle correction on landing" video is that the pilot is attempting to prevent movement, not cause it. And so rapid movements with no obvious upset doesn't necessarily mean that in perfectly still air this would be the result. The comparison would have to be made between the result of the stick's movements and the result of the stick's non-movements. If the stick wasn't moved the airplane would move more.

What? From what I know, the current roll rate is a bit lower than the real life MiG21. Would not make any sense to get it even further from the real thing...

and yet it seems that's exactly what they've done in this latest patch, just lowered the maximum roll rate instead of dealing with the inertia issues.

and yet it seems that's exactly what they've done in this latest patch, just lowered the maximum roll rate instead of dealing with the inertia issues.

It makes me mad. From my chair here it looks a poorly named thread results in a change to the FM. Is it more correct compared to the the real mig-21? who knows. Is it the roll rate, or the inertia that's the problem? Who knows. Are they right and we all wrong or is it a mixture? Again who knows. Not a peep from the devs, other then the change notice.

I assume most change is for the best, but the FM for this aircraft has been all over the place. I dunno what to believe anymore. :Flush:

I actually like the FM now after latest patch.

The roll rate I am not sure if is on the numbers... feels slower than before but more natural and it does feel the inertia.

Besides that I still feel the nice control in tight turns, I mean I can keep it on yellow all day long without it wobbling out of control like before! This is great!

If for this I need to sacrifice a bit of roll rate... fine for me. I really don't plan on making to many rolling scissors with F5s anyway.

I also like that now I can again control the plane well during take off and also at landing. When The nose goes up it doesn't jump to over 30° like it did before. Now you can smoothly stop it.

It felt great especially since the plane was actually dancing on the suspensions a bit but without being scary.

I did my test on a mission with some lateral wind and was OK.

I recorded the landing (and botched it :D as I had to wave off because of lack of attention and no chute because it was already used... so I had to come back Spitfire style being also low on fuel). The plane is very light and in wind performed "controllable".

I liked it. I don't know if this is how the real mig "feels" but...

I also like the last FM update a lot. Enjoying it.

Really like the old girl again now .

It makes me mad. From my chair here it looks a poorly named thread results in a change to the FM. Is it more correct compared to the the real mig-21? who knows. Is it the roll rate, or the inertia that's the problem? Who knows. Are they right and we all wrong or is it a mixture? Again who knows. Not a peep from the devs, other then the change notice.

 

I assume most change is for the best, but the FM for this aircraft has been all over the place. I dunno what to believe anymore. :Flush:

Yep I'm a bit disappointed in this.

Unloaded the roll rate is back to mediocre, need to add full rudder for a decent combat roll speed.

Plane is now almost impossible to get to depart from flight, can fly with full aileron, rudder and even elevator deflection indefinitely.

please don't tell me this update was because of this thread.. i have not seen a single prooving evidence in this thread at all. people just saying it should have "higher inertia".. why? because the other guy said it should..

I would go with Dolphin where the updates are concerned. Inertia or not he knows better.

Flight model by peer pressure is not the way to accurately simulate a flight model, yet that's exactly whats happened here.

The real aircraft is capable of between 0.2 and 0.4 radian/second roll for every grad of aileron deflection throughout it's flight envelope, with the 0.4 peak being at around 0.75mach and 15k feet alt. That is a roll rate of in excess of 400dps.

The max i can now get in game is 215dps, the last patch was circa 350.

Didn't checked yet, but as far as i know the problem was the lack of inertia while rolling, not the rolling speed itself....

Flight model by peer pressure is not the way to accurately simulate a flight model, yet that's exactly whats happened here.

 

The real aircraft is capable of between 0.2 and 0.4 radian/second roll for every grad of aileron deflection throughout it's flight envelope, with the 0.4 peak being at around 0.75mach and 15k feet alt. That is a roll rate of in excess of 400dps.

 

The max i can now get in game is 215dps, the last patch was circa 350.

How do you know EXACTLY the FM was changed due to some pressure? Is this the same way you came with the numbers you followed?

How do you test those 0.4 radians per seconds etc??? Don't tell me you fly the plane in game and move the stick. Please don't!