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Old 01-25-2019, 03:10 AM   #11
zhukov032186
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Op, that's probably because the Harrier is primarily A2G focused, MOST Harriers lack extensive a2a capability, because... like... it's unsuited for it? Maybe an air superiority plane, like NOT a Harrier, would be your fix @@

Anyway, there has been talk of doing the plus someday as a separate module.
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Old 01-25-2019, 06:13 PM   #12
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The harrier was never a particularly good AA fighter being subsonic and draggy. It was pressed into that role at sea because it was the only aircraft that could be operated from "little" carriers. the II+ version with AAMRAMs wouldn't be too bad though.
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Old 01-26-2019, 05:17 AM   #13
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I think it is a great, if not fantastic air-air platform, when used to its strengths. While it is not supersonic, it can climb very fast when lightweight. It has a thoroughbred engine , albeit one for low and med altitudes. It was meant to be a strike fighter , capable of operating without airfields, and providing air-air as secondary mission. Majority of air-air combat takes place at sub-sonic speeds at at low to med altitudes. Often, a radar is not required. It depends on skills of pilot.

Old Sea Harriers FR.S of FAA in Falklands, shot down A-4's, Etendards, and got 9 IAI Neshers (formerly of Israeli AF), using guns and AIM-9L (1st gen all aspect). Their sensor was MK1 stereoscopic optical sensor, and radar guidance from RN ships.
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Old 01-26-2019, 09:42 AM   #14
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Originally Posted by DmitriKozlowsky View Post
Old Sea Harriers FR.S of FAA in Falklands, shot down A-4's, Etendards, and got 9 IAI Neshers (formerly of Israeli AF), using guns and AIM-9L (1st gen all aspect). Their sensor was MK1 stereoscopic optical sensor, and radar guidance from RN ships.
The Sea Harrier FRS.1 was pretty much brand new at the time of the Falklands Conflict rather than old. The FRS.1 had the Blue Fox radar so they had onboard BVR (just about) sensors.

The Argentinians did not lose any Etendards in the conflict but Pucara, Mirage III and C-130 can be added to the the Sea Harrier kills.

I guess its arguable why the Harrier pilots were so dominant in 1982. I don't think the Harrier is intrinsically a great dogfighter. It's likely a combination of a superior weapon, better training, not being at the edge of fuel limits in the combat area and significantly training in DACM with French Mirages before heading South.
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Old 01-26-2019, 10:16 AM   #15
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It's likely a combination of a superior weapon, better training, not being at the edge of fuel limits in the combat area and significantly training in DACM with French Mirages before heading South.
Pretty much this. The British outclassed the Argentinians due to just being better prepared.

The Harrier's A/A ability was definitely better than anyone expected, but it was little more than a stopgap.


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Old 01-26-2019, 06:36 PM   #16
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Originally Posted by Lordzarj View Post
The Sea Harrier FRS.1 was pretty much brand new at the time of the Falklands Conflict rather than old. The FRS.1 had the Blue Fox radar so they had onboard BVR (just about) sensors.

The Argentinians did not lose any Etendards in the conflict but Pucara, Mirage III and C-130 can be added to the the Sea Harrier kills.

I guess its arguable why the Harrier pilots were so dominant in 1982. I don't think the Harrier is intrinsically a great dogfighter. It's likely a combination of a superior weapon, better training, not being at the edge of fuel limits in the combat area and significantly training in DACM with French Mirages before heading South.
yea baiscally this.


French Mirages didn't have much air time and they had dated rear aspect heat seakers. and as someoen pointed out they were only pushed into the role because it was the only



Although one cannot deny the Av8b+ with amramms would be nice to have feature for self escort . Or even without looking at any pure aerial advantage,s simply for using its radar for A/G mapping is nice for its primary mission as a Strike A/C
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Old 01-26-2019, 06:42 PM   #17
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Quote:
Originally Posted by DmitriKozlowsky View Post
I think it is a great, if not fantastic air-air platform, when used to its strengths. While it is not supersonic, it can climb very fast when lightweight. It has a thoroughbred engine , albeit one for low and med altitudes. It was meant to be a strike fighter , capable of operating without airfields, and providing air-air as secondary mission. Majority of air-air combat takes place at sub-sonic speeds at at low to med altitudes. Often, a radar is not required. It depends on skills of pilot.

Old Sea Harriers FR.S of FAA in Falklands, shot down A-4's, Etendards, and got 9 IAI Neshers (formerly of Israeli AF), using guns and AIM-9L (1st gen all aspect). Their sensor was MK1 stereoscopic optical sensor, and radar guidance from RN ships.
sea harriers are not av8b harriers. their performance is much worse ( loaded down with new avionics despite newer engines) , and they are in design and purpose only really meant as strike aircraft so they can be operated without airfields or from helicopter harriers or in USMC case "amphibious assault ships".


the heatseakers are self defense weapons like in the A10. the Av8b harrier + whilst it does have a multimode radar Amram capability its even heavier than the N/A, its not ideally suited as Air superiority. think of it as being better able to self protect/ self escort than being able to turn into an Air superiority fighter. Still no SA page, no aim9x or JHMCS

the only reason those were added is because there were suprlus of AN/APG 65 radars available when the Hornets upgraded to the AN/APG73, and foreign buyers of the harrier were interested in having a radar equipped av8b
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Old 01-28-2019, 09:32 AM   #18
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The Sea Harriers, like all first generation Harrier models, have better performance because they have a different wing, better suited for high speeds. When they developed the Harrier II, like our AV-8B NA, the wing was redesigned for higher payloads and better handling.

The best fighter version is the Sea Harrier FA2, with the old wing, Blue Vixen radar, later developed into Typhoon's CAPTOR, AMRAAM and Sea eagle anti ship missiles. That's the version I would like to see most. It only has a limited ground attack capability, thus the FA2 would round off our Harrier well.
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Old 02-18-2019, 12:40 AM   #19
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The Sea Harriers, like all first generation Harrier models, have better performance because they have a different wing, better suited for high speeds. When they developed the Harrier II, like our AV-8B NA, the wing was redesigned for higher payloads and better handling.

The best fighter version is the Sea Harrier FA2, with the old wing, Blue Vixen radar, later developed into Typhoon's CAPTOR, AMRAAM and Sea eagle anti ship missiles. That's the version I would like to see most. It only has a limited ground attack capability, thus the FA2 would round off our Harrier well.
I want a FA2 so badly however I think its more likely we will see an FRS1. I would settle for a + and just make an FA2 skin for it.
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Old 03-03-2019, 08:13 PM   #20
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the Av8b harrier + whilst it does have a multimode radar Amram capability its even heavier than the N/A, its not ideally suited as Air superiority. think of it as being better able to self protect/ self escort than being able to turn into an Air superiority fighter.
The AV-8B+ is a normal 4th generation fighter, designed to perform the fighter tasks from remote and off-bases, where the other fighters can't.

Just like the Harrier from the start, not designed to perform tasks that dedicated attack or CAS aircrafts were doing, but again operate from bases that are constantly moved.

Air superiority fighters are obsolete once their airfields and roadbases are gone, when you can't land and take-off, your performance is limited. And in WW3 situation those are gone in first days.

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Still no SA page, no aim9x or JHMCS
Whine those are very useful, they are not requirements. Already AV-8B pilots have performed better in VWR combat "just with" AIM-9M against new F/A-18C hornets pilots as AV-8B can turn better. Sure the AIM-9X is useful to get missile off-boresight more than AIM-9M and JHMCS allows Hornet pilot attack to Harrier, but still it is not 1 vs 1 situation and it is not like one can fly there forever with full fuel etc.

The SA page while is nice, is not so much required over radio communications from other sources. But it makes it much easier for the pilot to do own tactical decisions, but still they can be making mistakes as the SA is not perfect by information accuracy.

And if the pilot is too dependant to electronic communications, their skills can be very limited to perform operations in EW environments where you do not get any datalinks, you don't have communications etc. Why all that you have is the information you stored to computer or you have written.

And that is something what we do not yet have in DCS at all, a electronic warfare where datalinks are jammed and made inoperable.

So we all should agree that AV-8B is not performing like a dedicated CAS or strike aircraft, it is not performing as a best air superiority fighter. But it does many things well even in normal operations, but it really starts to shine only when the war advances further and further to operations where your air superiority fighters and strike fighters are operating over 500-600km distances and far from the pouches and ground forces that needs the protection and extra hand to destroy the enemy.

So when your strike group is 2x AV-8B N/A and 3x AV-8B+, you can perform a better results than a couple air superiority fighters from long range airbase and couple strike fighters from another airbase far away.

Neither ones are replacing either ones, they are just a different tools for different tasks.

Having a fighter that can operate inside a air defence network close to the enemy border, without any roadbases or airfields or carriers is huge benefit.
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