No one escapes in front of the Russian aircraft

Haven't the AI always been amazingly brilliant at defeating missiles? At least, in my experience - even their helicopters have an amazing ability to simply hop out of the way.

Not in my experience which is not to say that kills are easy. Usually the 2nd missile does the job. Than again, there have been times--not often--when 6 missiles in a row have been trashed. But I suppose it depends a lot on the aircraft you're targeting and the situation.

I'll watch the Tacview once I'm home but I've seen some peculiar behavior, such as this engagement during the Red Flag event. This is the HUD POV of my 120C which damaged his jet but was easily able to RTB.

hi all, i was reading the whole post and i can't find what is the exploit. Could you please explain me? I'm usually flying in Su-27/MiG-29.

Thanks.

I don't think there's an exploit here, its more like a whine thread, tbh...

I mean, what is the problem here? People use their eyes and look outside the cockpit?

Add to that all the "Chaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaafff" spam and its just a mess.

Edit; BTW, netcodes, servers, laggy people, bad internet, all that plays its part too.

hi all, i was reading the whole post and i can't find what is the exploit. Could you please explain me? I'm usually flying in Su-27/MiG-29.

 

Thanks.

I will find you on the server, and I'll explain you in first hand :D

and do not tell me "good kill", It is so boring... :D

Sorry if I am a little slow to catch on, but I also just read through this entire thread and don't understand what the exploit is. Can some one please explain it to me in simple terms. Are you saying saying that Russian missiles don't work good at all, or they work too good, or is there something wrong with using a lot of chaff and flares? Besides the usual lag and warping that makes missiles loose track, is there something else that's not right or is considered cheating? What exactly are we talking about.

again,

not the point that is better or more realistic plane. Already gradation between pilots, complex approach (like RL) vs. simple effective approach "ekploit". If the dominant this first I love this game. If this is second dominant for fight, I do not like... I believe you, too. only if not childish to forget this game as soon as you get out another game, even simpler.

not the point in AIM, R-27, chaff-flare, visual possibility, east-west conflict, nothing... just approach problems the interesting of resolving the complexity of variables. I do not like simplicity!

I want more variables that we must take care!!! Only one concern, one solution, that is "exploit". Exploit is not cheat of course.

Hmm I don't how to put this but I was on the virtual-aerobatics server in the Eagle and I could not match the Su-27 turn rates , the Eagle was bleeding a lot of speed and needed a lot of thrust to get out of that stalling point. Most of the time I had to push her to AB and get out and pull back on the throttle.

Either I was not doing it right or I don't know.

Hmm I don't how to put this but I was on the virtual-aerobatics server in the Eagle and I could not match the Su-27 turn rates , the Eagle was bleeding a lot of speed and needed a lot of thrust to get out of that stalling point. Most of the time I had to push her to AB and get out and pull back on the throttle.

 

Either I was not doing it right or I don't know.

That's how it should be: The F-15 will not match the Su-27s low/medium altitude turn rate.

Its all about pre-merge positioning and better BFM... :)

That's how it should be: The F-15 will not match the Su-27s low/medium altitude turn rate.

 

Its all about pre-merge positioning and better BFM... :)

Yeah I did read about those turn rates on the Sukhoi's , though the Eagle has a tremendous thrust ratio.

Not to go off topic but I guess both the models are PFM right ?

That's how it should be: The F-15 will not match the Su-27s low/medium altitude turn rate.

 

Its all about pre-merge positioning and better BFM... :)

in sustained turn, horisontal, more than 700km/h, eagle must be a little stronger in TRT than flanker, 20deg/s (n=7-8,5G). low altitude.

Now in DCS, it is not so...

again,

 

not the point that is better or more realistic plane. Already gradation between pilots, complex approach (like RL) vs. simple effective approach "ekploit". If the dominant this first I love this game. If this is second dominant for fight, I do not like... I believe you, too. only if not childish to forget this game as soon as you get out another game, even simpler.

 

not the point in AIM, R-27, chaff-flare, visual possibility, east-west conflict, nothing... just approach problems the interesting of resolving the complexity of variables. I do not like simplicity!

 

 

I want more variables that we must take care!!! Only one concern, one solution, that is "exploit". Exploit is not cheat of course.

Well, first of all there's hardly a complex approach at all when it comes to FC3 aircraft; they're the simplest aircraft in all of DCS. Missiles need to be looked at, so if that's a huge priority then you can look for the reputable sources on their characteristics for yourself and submit them.

Addressing the servers themselves, if you don't like the mission then don't play it. Servers like the 104th aren't realistic in the first place, it's more of an FPS style. IRL, nobody would be stationed 30 minutes away from the enemy base, it would be more of a 12hr sortie round trip, and you can't even create that in the modeled world of DCS at this point, and even if you did you'd have to find people that want to do that exact thing, in which case 99% don't want to give up their entire Saturday for one mission in which case, realistically, they're lucky to find a bandit on the radar in the first place.

You have to play the sim how it's made, take the changes and adapt, that's all there is to it. Am I happy the AMRAAM is really only an 8nm missile? No. How about the abysmal range on the S530D? Nothing I can do to change it so you adapt. Myself, Hadwell, and a few others had K/Ds above 2 on average on the 104th last year in MiG-21s. Hadwell continues to fly them and achieves even higher than that now.

There's no sense complaining about something. Submit a solution to the problem and your issue will be looked upon in a different light.

That's how it should be: The F-15 will not match the Su-27s low/medium altitude turn rate.

 

Its all about pre-merge positioning and better BFM... :)

This. Below 6,000m altitude the absolute worst thing an Eagle driver can do is to get in to a turning fight with an Su-27. The sustained turn rate, instantaneous turn rate, nose authority, helmet mounted sight and off-bore R-73 capabilities make the Flanker a horrifyingly capable WVR aircraft. From the Flanker drivers perspective, the problem is surviving until you get to WVR ranges.

If I understand it correctly, the issue being discussed here in this thread is essentially the same issue that was/is being discussed in the R-27ER vs Chaff thread, i.e. that the rather simplistic probability model that's used to determine whether a SARH missile is spoofed by chaff not only leads to a totally borked big stick for the Flanker but also produces unrealistic countermeasure behaviour, e.g. chaff spoofing targeting radar when the chaff cloud should no longer be within the radar beam etc. etc.

That being said, implementing a truly accurate model of radar might well be beyond the processing capabilities of current desktop computers, particularly when the CPU also has to carry out calculations for AI, aerodynamic simulation and a heap of other things.

Well, first of all there's hardly a complex approach at all when it comes to FC3 aircraft; they're the simplest aircraft in all of DCS. Missiles need to be looked at, so if that's a huge priority then you can look for the reputable sources on their characteristics for yourself and submit them.

 

Addressing the servers themselves, if you don't like the mission then don't play it. Servers like the 104th aren't realistic in the first place, it's more of an FPS style. IRL, nobody would be stationed 30 minutes away from the enemy base, it would be more of a 12hr sortie round trip, and you can't even create that in the modeled world of DCS at this point, and even if you did you'd have to find people that want to do that exact thing, in which case 99% don't want to give up their entire Saturday for one mission in which case, realistically, they're lucky to find a bandit on the radar in the first place.

 

You have to play the sim how it's made, take the changes and adapt, that's all there is to it. Am I happy the AMRAAM is really only an 8nm missile? No. How about the abysmal range on the S530D? Nothing I can do to change it so you adapt. Myself, Hadwell, and a few others had K/Ds above 2 on average on the 104th last year in MiG-21s. Hadwell continues to fly them and achieves even higher than that now.

 

There's no sense complaining about something. Submit a solution to the problem and your issue will be looked upon in a different light.

You're absolutely right

When I think about it, in the long term, it is much more enjoyable to play against an opponent which is much easier. In fact, I would say a big exam. Never so much killing as Eagle, but the task worthy of the best pilots. How to outsmart someone who is much easier. Who knows, maybe this is not bad for Flanker drivers. Should only be released expectations from the "past life".

OK, I'm at peace with destiny. :smilewink:

back to training :thumbup:

Do I even need to watch the tacviews? Im assuming its the usual "I can trash as many missiles as I like no matter how low, slow and dumb I fly so long as I can spam flares/chaff"...

If I understand it correctly, the issue being discussed here in this thread is essentially the same issue that was/is being discussed in the R-27ER vs Chaff thread, i.e. that the rather simplistic probability model that's used to determine whether a SARH missile is spoofed by chaff not only leads to a totally borked big stick for the Flanker but also produces unrealistic countermeasure behaviour, e.g. chaff spoofing targeting radar when the chaff cloud should no longer be within the radar beam etc. etc.

 

That being said, implementing a truly accurate model of radar might well be beyond the processing capabilities of current desktop computers, particularly when the CPU also has to carry out calculations for AI, aerodynamic simulation and a heap of other things.

ED dont need to go to all that trouble. Let me give you an example. Many versions ago there was an update that meant you coukd reliable evade any 120/77 fired at you by barrel rolling. All you had to do was take a slight offset, wait till the beryioza was 2 lights from full and pull into the missile.

I could reliably defeat 3 to 4 120s just by flying almost straight at an F15 with enough speed to barrel roll them in sequence. And then plant whatever missile i fancied at their face.

It was an exploit. Yet people (me included) did it because the sim allowed and it was ruining BVR. ED didnt have to rewrite the entire seeker/guidance code to resolve it. They just fixed it. Eventually.

This chaff/flare BS is the same. Its an exploit of predictable game mechanics that is ruining the sim. It might be ok for the AI but for MP it falls short.

ED just need to fix it.

Fixing the chaff flare issue would be nice. But even without chaff and flare i get the same results. Multiple times a day i defeat a ton of missiles by just maneuvering, doing high G turns and things. Without even using the hills for cover.

But yesterday those ER's where pretty freaking deadly. I could not defeat one of them even when fired from 20KM... But that might have been the Vodka.

I know.. drinking Vodka while flying is not realistic. I'm sorry. But sometimes drinking vodka while flying can be a exploit.

unfortunately still waiting for some answers from my sources, but I think it would be best to in "look up 3-9 aspect" SARH embark on weeds with barrel-roll and large progressive reduction speed like in "my exploit". I hope to have clear answers soon...

Ragnarok that video is broken (I can't view it in my browser). Any possibility of just posting a link?

Ragnarok that video is broken (I can't view it in my browser). Any possibility of just posting a link?

find to youtube

"F-16 dodging 6 Iraqi SAM launches on Jan 19 1991"

time 5:20 somethin like barrel roll I think. speed in this moment 170 from 420

find to youtube

 

"F-16 dodging 6 Iraqi SAM launches on Jan 19 1991"

 

time 5:20 somethin like barrel roll I think. speed in this moment 170 from 420

Not sure what you're trying to get at with this video. Maneuvering limitations of SAMs are (usually) much less than that of an air to air missile because of a range of factors to include the weight and size of the missile. It's much harder to maneuver a telephone pole than a fence post. Because of this simple junking maneuvers are more effective. With older SAM systems radar lock was also easier to break by maneuvering as well.

ED dont need to go to all that trouble. Let me give you an example. Many versions ago there was an update that meant you coukd reliable evade any 120/77 fired at you by barrel rolling. All you had to do was take a slight offset, wait till the beryioza was 2 lights from full and pull into the missile.

 

I could reliably defeat 3 to 4 120s just by flying almost straight at an F15 with enough speed to barrel roll them in sequence. And then plant whatever missile i fancied at their face.

 

It was an exploit. Yet people (me included) did it because the sim allowed and it was ruining BVR. ED didnt have to rewrite the entire seeker/guidance code to resolve it. They just fixed it. Eventually.

 

This chaff/flare BS is the same. Its an exploit of predictable game mechanics that is ruining the sim. It might be ok for the AI but for MP it falls short.

 

ED just need to fix it.

Not trying to get into a "pissing" contest with you. How ever how can you say that "spamming" chaff/flare is an exploit?

Even if the CM rejection is altered do you think "gamers" are going to care. a Vast majority of people only care about the kill even if it results in a death them self. So they are still going to push just to get the kill.

In my opinion this isn't an exploit it's just a lack thereof in the game.

Exploits in this game would be the screenshot, or alt/tab exploits. Or missile file changes.

Spamming chaff/flare does not qualify.

Spamming chaff has always been a thing since lockon, the problem now is that it has become uber effective in so much that it ruins the point of BVR.

Tell me. How to chaff realistically? What intervals? What aspect should i have? How many? I only chaff because i heard/read it defeats missiles. But nobody ever thought me how to tactically dispense chaff. And i did a search for it but still have no clue. I always spammed chaff in any flying game. Because it works and because i'm ignorant on how to use it normally how RL pilots do it. And i even dispense chaff against AIM-120c in this game while i know it's barely effective against it. It's habit.

Maybe we should learn people how to dispense chaff first effectively without spamming it before calling it a exploit. But this is probably a futile exercise now the chaff is bugged... or at least the missiles being to sensitive for the chaff. So i go back to spamming the chaff until this is fixed and i know how to tactically dispense chaff like RL pilots.