Dogfight tactics

Taking part in MP dogfights, one question impose: shell I use Mustang as "energy fighter" and use boom&zoom tactics or shell I use it like "turn fighter"? In literature Mustang should be "energy fighter" and its 6 machine guns should make real mess with even short burst on enemy fighter. So far I have not seen a single shoot down of enemy aircraft in such of manner. To shoot down enemy, usually, we are entering in dogfight like "turn fighter" and spent at least 50% of our ammo! Doing so we lose our best advantage (speed) and become easy pray for the rest of enemy planes...

...the "devastation" of 6 .50 call, like I mention above, also make me wondering about accurate modeling of Mustang fire power!?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Oswald_Boelcke

Oswald Boelcke would be proud on me! :D

Lule

With the DCS P-51D If you hit a plane in that sweetspot around 1000ft with a well timed burst it can destroy a plane in short order. The trick is getting a large number of strikes on a small area of the moving target. It is not an easy thing. SO many factors can spoil a gun solution. From what I've seen, if you are using 50% of your ammo on one target you have made several errors in the process. Getting sporadic hits on a bandit will cause it to be a drawn out ordeal. I personally try to aim for a focused short burst. (Doesn't always turn out that way) A slight deflection shot also ensures you hit more vital/vulnerable parts of the bandit.

This will probably turn into another convergence thread but it is possible, with the current harmonization setup to inflict devastating results with relatively small amounts of ammo.

Short burst are key but only if they hit :P having the patience to hold your fire till the right time. Also knowing that the right time presents it self in an instant, and many times is lost just as quickly. Most people would be surprised at how many shots they fired verses how many made contact. German study during the war found that the average was 06% hits of fired rounds. The closer that you can get before firing, will greatly increase your hit average. If you look at the ace's of WW2, the very best of them preferred sneaking up undetected to 70 yards or so, then firing short burst.

I'm very familiar with issue with convergence...maybe I wasn't so precise but my dilemma is how to use Mustang in dogfight, like energy or turn fighter?!

...that's the question now!

Most of my tactics after failing the surprise, are to put my self in a favorable position of behind. My fight is for that position using anything and everything to get there. A high failure rate usually, and gets protracted and drawn out.

I'm very familiar with issue with convergence...maybe I wasn't so precise but my dilemma is how to use Mustang in dogfight, like energy or turn fighter?!

 

...that's the question now!

The answer depend on your adversary and on you. There's no such thing as a plane which is an energy fighter, the relative strengths of your plane versus your opponents dictate how you should approach the fight. Can you turn better than them? If you can, make it a turn fight, if you can't make it an energy fight.

I'm very familiar with issue with convergence...maybe I wasn't so precise but my dilemma is how to use Mustang in dogfight, like energy or turn fighter?!

 

...that's the question now!

Ok, the reason I mentioned Harmonization is because you mentioned using 50% of your ammo and you questioned the power of the six M2s.

How you fight should depend on the situation at hand. If it's 1vs1 against another Mustang you can get away with using turn fighting tactics. If you are facing 2 or more bandits or a better turner you need to stay fast and getting locked in a turnfight will probably get you killed.

Ok,

How you fight should depend on the situation at hand.

This is told in a very detailed way in "Art of the Kill" from Falcon4 with Pete Bonani F16 Pilot. A must view for any Sim. Pilot. The Best BFM (Battle Field Maneuvering) video in the genre.

naah...I give up on this "scientific" approach on this theme...our so call flying and dogfighting in MP and real combat like in WWII are totally different things...so for me, my "tactics" in MP will be just jump in the flying circus and Feuer frei!!!

Real P-51s engaged in dogfighting all the time. It isn't unhistorical for P-51s to turn fight, especially when facing similarly capable adversaries--the USAAF P-51 manual even recommended using combat flap judiciously to tighten turns. This tired old IL-2 crowd mentality of "real fighter pilots always boom & zoom, dogfighting is for arcade kids" is rubbish; there were plenty of real fighter pilots who regularly engaged in dogfighting, and survived to tell the story (and the guncam footage, too). As Merlin-27 already told you, whether boom & zoom or dogfighting is the right tactic depends entirely on the situation at hand; this is true in real life and in the sim as well.

Best way to get an idea is to maybe watch this video:

The AI flys an energy fight it often will climb to build up energy so even if you are dogfighting an FW190 or P51 that's AI it will still result in an energy type fight eventually.:joystick:

Ohh yes, famos History Chanel and the epic P-51 turn (from about 39.00 min.)...heh, I knew that this turn will showed up soon or later...after this episode of Dogfights, all the stuff that I watched in that serial I took with the reserve...:book:

...and I also think that it would be nice that AI adversary in dogfight fly a little beat like "turn fighter"...not just up and down...

@Echo 38, "real fighter pilots always boom & zoom, dogfighting is for arcade kids - is rubbish", here is a good cause for "war of opinions" in which I don't want to participated because on this theme is already enough said...:)

here is a good cause for "war of opinions" in which I don't want to participated because on this theme is already enough said...

It isn't an opinion. Thousands of real fighter pilots did engage in dogfighting. They were trained for it and instructed to do so when necessary.

For someone who doesn't want to participate in such a topic, you've been rather vocal about your notion, haven't you? Heck, you were the one who raised the subject.

I'll agree with you on one thing, though--Candelaria's actual maneuver did not look anything like what they showed on the show.

Short burst are key but only if they hit :P having the patience to hold your fire till the right time. Also knowing that the right time presents it self in an instant, and many times is lost just as quickly. Most people would be surprised at how many shots they fired verses how many made contact. German study during the war found that the average was 06% hits of fired rounds. The closer that you can get before firing, will greatly increase your hit average. If you look at the ace's of WW2, the very best of them preferred sneaking up undetected to 70 yards or so, then firing short burst.

Get TacView and see what you are doing wrong.

http://lomac.strasoftware.com/tacview-en.php

I'm very familiar with issue with convergence...maybe I wasn't so precise but my dilemma is how to use Mustang in dogfight, like energy or turn fighter?!

 

...that's the question now!

I do not get into turn fights with WWII USA fighter planes. I go into battle high and hope I am high enough not to get jumped by a pair higher up. Once I get too slow I high-tail it to get separation and altitude and go again.

Too many guys in this DCS sim are fighting too low, and too soon >>> too slow, and hence the question by many, "What am I doing wrong?" The guys shooting you guys down know better and just love it.

I think the biggest factor is the initial merge and waiting for the best opportunity.

The bird has the characteristics of a great boom n zoomer, but it still allows for high speed turnfights (especially because you can use flaps at high speed).

You should be quite flexible with what you do, it's up to the engagement really. Sometimes you'll turn, sometimes you won't. Boom n zoom generally has two huge advantages over turnfighting. That is 1) remaining quite safe to attacks from outside (because no matter what you keep your speed up) and 2) commanding the fight.

If you insist on turnfighting against a good boom n zoom pilot you will have a really hard time, unless you have a big enough energy advantage.

Oh and forget about everything you've seen on history channel..

If you want to learn dogfighting properly, join an online vSqn. As for AI it is pretty easy now to whack another pony but needs a heap of patience and like you said, a lead good enough to be kissing him.

check out this mini-clip. I held my rounds till I saw him in the true vertical and fired a short burst.

I think a WWII German ace had his favourite engagement range at 150 feet. I don't know the doctrine difference for allied fighters though, specially pony jocks.

@Echo38

You just make me laugh so hard man.Where does all your frustration vs the old il2 come from ? Because it's irrelevant in this discussion.

The biggest aces of all time Erich Hartman , Richtofen said that they almost never dogfighted.In fact Richtofen got shot down because of loosing his cool and chasing for far too long the enemy plane.

My old il2 mentality tells me that you win fights with your mind(deciding when and where to engage and to disengage) ,not with your dogfighting skill, if you enter a dogfight with a superior maneuvering plane, even if you are able to kill him you still have a big "chance" to get shot down by another enemy in the area. Because you get slow and speed=life.

Look at the video posted by WildBillKelsoe tha p51 wins but his speed in the end is 0. In a multiplayer 30 vs 30 for example game what if a enemy catches you at 0 speed while he is diving at max speed? He is going to set fire to more than your tail tip. I say again speed=life, never get that slow.

I'm not saing not to do a yo-yo or 2 but one should know then to disengage from a fight.

When i dive with the p51 at maximum speed on a 109 in the old il2 i only need a split second burst to brake a wing off. Because the speed vectors of my plane and my rounds combine, and the mg rounds have a lot more energy. kinetic energy is calculated like this:

Ek = ½mv2 (that is m*(V*V)/2)

So this equation reveals that the kinetic energy of an object is directly proportional to the square of its speed. That means that for a twofold increase in speed, the kinetic energy will increase by a factor of four. For a threefold increase in speed, the kinetic energy will increase by a factor of nine.So if you shoot at max speed your mg rounds have far, far more distructive enery.

If you shoot from low dogfight speeds like "profesor echo" here your rounds have a lot less energy so you will shoot a bucket of bullets to get the kill if you are facing a pilot that takes evasive action and not a noob.

DCS AFM or arcade fm has nothing to do with this topic.My arguments are valid even for arcades like war thunder.

The only arcade jokes i seen are those History Documentaries.If Candelaria did anything like that in real life he would be dead.

Because if you get slow enough to do that turn(The rudder can turn the plane like that only at stalling speed) the other guy just blows you apart with a very easy deflection shooting. And at high speed you just can't get slow enough , fast enough to do that sci-fi turn. And the other guy just stands still and calmly passes through your field of fire ?And the "concentration" of your mg rounds would be 0.Shooting like that i think would be a miracle if any hits on the enemy plane are scored. All the time the germans atacked in pairs(leader , wingman).The leader attaks while the wingman watches his 6.

Stuf like: the skilled german leader fights the american and everybody else wathes is TV crap.

it's just as realistic as a monkey shooting down a 109 by throwing a banana while hanging from a weather baloon.

If i was in that p51 i would do a downward defensive spiral because tha 51 accelerates much faster in a dive and disengage. Why should i go up when the 109 is beter in a climb ?

Good topic. Im kind of, maybe just, thinking about, starting to get into using those MGs on my P51 for the first time on some MP servers so I appreciate any discussion where I can learn some valid tactics. :)

@Echo38

 

You just make me laugh so hard man.Where does all your frustration vs the old il2 come from ? Because it's irrelevant in this discussion.

The biggest aces of all time Erich Hartman , Richtofen said that they almost never dogfighted.In fact Richtofen got shot down because of loosing his cool and chasing for far too long the enemy plane.

 

My old il2 mentality tells me that you win fights with your mind(deciding when and where to engage and to disengage) ,not with your dogfighting skill, if you enter a dogfight with a superior maneuvering plane, even if you are able to kill him you still have a big "chance" to get shot down by another enemy in the area. Because you get slow and speed=life.

Look at the video posted by WildBillKelsoe tha p51 wins but his speed in the end is 0. In a multiplayer 30 vs 30 for example game what if a enemy catches you at 0 speed while he is diving at max speed? He is going to set fire to more than your tail tip. I say again speed=life, never get that slow.

I'm not saing not to do a yo-yo or 2 but one should know then to disengage from a fight.

 

When i dive with the p51 at maximum speed on a 109 in the old il2 i only need a split second burst to brake a wing off. Because the speed vectors of my plane and my rounds combine, and the mg rounds have a lot more energy. kinetic energy is calculated like this:

Ek = ½mv2 (that is m*(V*V)/2)

 

So this equation reveals that the kinetic energy of an object is directly proportional to the square of its speed. That means that for a twofold increase in speed, the kinetic energy will increase by a factor of four. For a threefold increase in speed, the kinetic energy will increase by a factor of nine.So if you shoot at max speed your mg rounds have far, far more distructive enery.

 

If you shoot from low dogfight speeds like "profesor echo" here your rounds have a lot less energy so you will shoot a bucket of bullets to get the kill if you are facing a pilot that takes evasive action and not a noob.

 

 

DCS AFM or arcade fm has nothing to do with this topic.My arguments are valid even for arcades like war thunder.

 

The only arcade jokes i seen are those History Documentaries.If Candelaria did anything like that in real life he would be dead.

Because if you get slow enough to do that turn(The rudder can turn the plane like that only at stalling speed) the other guy just blows you apart with a very easy deflection shooting. And at high speed you just can't get slow enough , fast enough to do that sci-fi turn. And the other guy just stands still and calmly passes through your field of fire ?And the "concentration" of your mg rounds would be 0.Shooting like that i think would be a miracle if any hits on the enemy plane are scored. All the time the germans atacked in pairs(leader , wingman).The leader attaks while the wingman watches his 6.

Stuf like: the skilled german leader fights the american and everybody else wathes is TV crap.

it's just as realistic as a monkey shooting down a 109 by throwing a banana while hanging from a weather baloon.

 

 

If i was in that p51 i would do a downward defensive spiral because tha 51 accelerates much faster in a dive and disengage. Why should i go up when the 109 is beter in a climb ?

Point is that the more time you spend on fancy maneuvers and trying to beat one guy the less you spend on observing your environment. Focusing one guy means everyone else will have free reign on you. It's worthless to beat the bandit if you die for it. If you put yourself in a bad position there's no such wingman or luck that will save your ass.

But what do you do when you have no choice but to fight ? the quicker you take out the guy the better no matter what (practice gunnary) sure what you say is true, but you still have to track when BnZ, and its still possible to get BnZ'd yourself.

I didn't say you must not turn at all. But it is very hard to judge whether you can afford to turnfight or not. You never really know if someone's gonna jump in your fight within the next minutes, and even if you're getting BnZ-d it's better to defend in an energy conservative way because if you start wasting your energy even those who are in a worse energetic situation might have a chance to attack you.

But it is very hard to judge whether you can afford to turnfight or not. You never really know if someone's gonna jump in your fight within the next minutes

Exactly, if you can take them out in the 1st-2nd pass or locked on to his 6, that threat is out of the picture.When you can do that you have more of chance of staying alive.I find the longer the fight goes on the less likely it is to make it back to base.