Av8b and the mk20 cluster bombs.

Hi, how effective are the mk20 cluster bombs?

I've been practicing with the mk20 rockeye's on some ww2 tanks. Panzer 2's and that range.

I'm finding they don't seem to be doing much damage.

As far as I can tell I've set them up correctly. Set the fuze to PR or OP, used both CCIP and Auto.

They do appear to be getting released. The little bomblets pop out after release.

But the tanks don't seem to be getting as messed up as I thought they would.

Anyone care to educate a AV8B cluster bomb noob? :)

I think cluster bombs have been broken for quite some time, except for the SFW ones the A-10C can carry.

ED is supposed to be fixing the mk20 rock eyes. This isn’t a RAZBAM issue.

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On that note, CCIP with the Rockeyes seems messed up. Diving from 18,000' at 35° with the FPM just behind the target, the CCIP doesn't appear in the HUD much less get a solid release solution until about 6000'. When the Rockeyes burst, the pattern always hits long.

I was testing Z diagrams from the T-45 real manuals with speed- elevation-dive angle-distance parameters used on the Harrier and described on the VMAT-203 PDF manual for High-Med-Low profiles with Rockets.

The DCS Harrier matches those almost perfectly.

Do you have links to those two manuals? Google isn't turning up anything for me.

Give me some time. I will post some pics and links

Mk-20s are a bit lackluster damage-wise atm.

Sorry for the oftopic, this is a discussion about Mk-20 bombs.

Source: CNATRA PDF manuals ( T-45 Gosshawk )

Z diagrams for High 30 Rockets.

Bomb pattern.

Detailed description of the Z diagrams and patterns on the VMAT-203 manual.

VMAT-203

If you meet all the requirements on the Z diagram and the bombing profile you will see the DCS Harrier is matching perfectly this diagrams.

Thanks for the info dudes. And thank you Mirmidon, for the info.

I've used the RBK's on the Russian aircraft and they seemed to do much more damage than I've been getting from the Rockeye's. Wasn't sure if it was a Harrier issue or a DCS issue.

Are the Mk20 we use on the Harrier custom built for it? An RBK-250 seems to be a general bomb for most Russian aircraft, compared to the Tank missile for the Gazelle which seem to be made for that Heli. I'm just wandering if the Mk20 on the Harrier are custom and need tweaking?

Well it is still in Alpha, and things need to be ironed out and implemented. At least it's on the cards.

Off topic myself, how armored are the ww2 tanks, like the panzer 2, compared too M1.

I'm guessing the ww2 tanks have thick steel Armour, where as the modern tanks have composite amour.

Would a modern cluster bomb actually work against those types of targets? Or am I going into a tank fight with some party poppers?

"The MK-20 Rockeye is a free-fall, unguided cluster weapon designed to kill tanks and armored vehicles. The system consists of a clamshell dispenser, a mechanical MK-339 timed fuze, and 247 dual-purpose armor-piercing shaped-charge bomblets. The bomblet weighs 1.32 pounds and has a 0.4-pound shaped-charge warhead of high explosives, which produces up to 250,000 psi at the point of impact, allowing penetration of approximately 7.5 inches of armor. Rockeye is most efficiently used against area targets requiring penetration to kill. Fielded in 1968, the Rockeye dispenser is also used in the Gator air-delivered mine system. The bomblets free fall over a 3,300 square yard area and detonate on impact. The shaped warhead charge in the bomblet is good against armor and soft skinned targets."

"During Desert Storm US Marines used the weapon extensively, dropping 15,828 of the 27,987 total Rockeyes against armor, artillery, and antipersonnel targets."

So yeah, it should cause severe damage to any trucks and light skinned vehicles (if struck). From what I ve seen, read and heard. They were also often used against anemy AAA and SAM positions. It is a very effective weapon and thats why it was so widely used in Desert Storm.

In my opinion the Mk-20 should be a bit more powerful clearing up area targets in DCS. Often a direct hit is barely enough to get a truck smoking... it probably need adj. to damage dealt and bomblet pattern.

The Mk 20 is implemented by Eagle Dynamics, so it is in the base game and not custom.

Hopefully, cluster bomb and iron bomb damage will be adjusted when the Hornet is out

(since it is primary A/G munition in early access)

"The MK-20 Rockeye is a free-fall, unguided cluster weapon designed to kill tanks and armored vehicles. The system consists of a clamshell dispenser, a mechanical MK-339 timed fuze, and 247 dual-purpose armor-piercing shaped-charge bomblets. The bomblet weighs 1.32 pounds and has a 0.4-pound shaped-charge warhead of high explosives, which produces up to 250,000 psi at the point of impact, allowing penetration of approximately 7.5 inches of armor. Rockeye is most efficiently used against area targets requiring penetration to kill. Fielded in 1968, the Rockeye dispenser is also used in the Gator air-delivered mine system. The bomblets free fall over a 3,300 square yard area and detonate on impact. The shaped warhead charge in the bomblet is good against armor and soft skinned targets."

 

"During Desert Storm US Marines used the weapon extensively, dropping 15,828 of the 27,987 total Rockeyes against armor, artillery, and antipersonnel targets."

 

So yeah, it should cause severe damage to any trucks and light skinned vehicles (if struck). From what I ve seen, read and heard. They were also often used against anemy AAA and SAM positions. It is a very effective weapon and thats why it was so widely used in Desert Storm.

 

In my opinion the Mk-20 should be a bit more powerful clearing up area targets in DCS. Often a direct hit is barely enough to get a truck smoking... it probably need adj. to damage dealt and bomblet pattern.

 

The Mk 20 is implemented by Eagle Dynamics, so it is in the base game and not custom.

Hopefully, cluster bomb and iron bomb damage will be adjusted when the Hornet is out

(since it is primary A/G munition in early access)

Thanks dude :)

Clears up my question nicely. And I agree, got the Hornet coming soon, it uses those Rockeye's too, so hopefully yeah they will adjust them, as they don't cause the destruction I expected them too cause. I've had direct hit's but no Kaboom. "Where's the Kaboom?!'

Plus with the ww2 ground assets. it seems like a match made in heaven, or fantasy hehe.

250KIAS seems very slow for Harrier combat, but I'll give it a try. Did you convert KIAS to KTAS, since A-G mode in the Harrier doesn't display CAS? Or did you just use the pattern/delivery speeds from the -203 manual?

The Mk 20 is very effective if you just need dead weight at the moment, regardless which plane carries them

I've seen any other cluster bomb to be a lot more effective - or - to be effective at all in regards to what they've been made for. This includes all CBUs except the -100 and all RBKs.

I have commented and brought this up in the past about the abysmal damage model of the MK-20 as well as the incorrect burst diameter change regardless of release height and burst altitude.

The M-20 weapon system is created by ED for the DCS engine, and is a product of their model. The AV-8 as well as other aircraft can just equip this model that they created. Zeus responded to me that it is broken and that he cannot augment or tweak this as it has to be done by ED themselves.

I have posted a bug report for ED and have had no response, however Zeus did get back to me. Basically the ball is in the Russian court now so to speak to fix and adjust.

Hope this helps Kaned Dragon

I have commented and brought this up in the past about the abysmal damage model of the MK-20 as well as the incorrect burst diameter change regardless of release height and burst altitude.

 

The M-20 weapon system is created by ED for the DCS engine, and is a product of their model. The AV-8 as well as other aircraft can just equip this model that they created. Zeus responded to me that it is broken and that he cannot augment or tweak this as it has to be done by ED themselves.

 

I have posted a bug report for ED and have had no response, however Zeus did get back to me. Basically the ball is in the Russian court now so to speak to fix and adjust.

 

Hope this helps Kaned Dragon

Thanks for the information mate. On that note, maybe we should kick up a little fuss on the DCS part of the forum. Give them a gentle reminder. No point filling RAZBAM's secton with this topic. :D

I started a thread under the wishlist, no responses.

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What are the drop parameters Rockeye? I don't see anything in the pocket guide.

What are the drop parameters Rockeye? I don't see anything in the pocket guide.

I get good results from rolling in at 15000, pickle at 7000 - 5000, going as fast as I possibly can. I have dropped from straight and level at 2000, also going as fast as possible, but a dive seems more accurate. Sorry I haven't been able to find official guidance on it either.

I've only used them once since the recent update, but I had success rolling in from 5200-5300ft, 30° dive, good CCIP solution at 3500ft, manually released intervals from 2500-2000ft. First bomb overshot the target by about 50ft, but I still took out 2 T-55s and 3 M113s in one pass.

Mk20 Rockeye feels lack luster for sure. Accurate application does not increase its effectiveness. However the Ruskie PTAB munition is comparable. If one has spent some time in the A-10 and now learning the AV-8B it is difficult to get comfortable with the different vintage of ordinance. But I've been flying the toad for a while and have always been envious of the A-10's effectiveness with cluster bombs. My first Drop of the Mk20 reminded me of a PTAB.

Considering the accuracy of the flight model I think we may dealing with vintage vs. expectation.

B.T.W, thanks for this bird. The 6 yr. old in me is burnin' cookies. :)

Av8b and the mk20 cluster bombs.

I find the angle and speed are very important for a successful kill with armor. About 25-30 degrees and 500-550 knots works well. I guess if you go too slow the munitions can’t penetrate and the angles are important just as much. Too shallow and will hardly scratch the target. Weird thing is if you dive more than 30, like 45 or more, it has very little effect. You would think it would be just as effective?

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In DCS, MK20 Rockeyes deliveted by AV-8B are very effective. But they need to be delivered from proper height altitude of above 3.5K feet AGL at release, with burst height set to 1800. You have to remember to set Fuze to Nose&Tail. It is very easy in Harrier to forget to set proper fusing, and release the weapons unfuzed.

I still seem to have the problem that Mk20s dropped from a Hornet work just as advertised while Mk20s I drop from the AV-8B do, well, nothing at all, even when dropped in multiples and literally engulfing the target in bomblet explosions.

It used to be that a pair of Harrier-dropped Mk20s cracked everything up to a T-72 reliably for me. No idea how that discrepancy is even possible.

Also I think the fusing options for the Mk20 are just 'Primary' and 'Option'.

In DCS, MK20 Rockeyes deliveted by AV-8B are very effective. But they need to be delivered from proper height altitude of above 3.5K feet AGL at release, with burst height set to 1800. You have to remember to set Fuze to Nose&Tail. It is very easy in Harrier to forget to set proper fusing, and release the weapons unfuzed.

How exactly do I set this burst height and Nose&tail fusing?