Gazelle unfinished flight model

I've made a video to show how the Gazelle flight model can't be ok.

I've set some really difficult conditions with 15 m/s (30 knots) wind an MAX possible turbulence.

First take off in the Huey, it's difficult with this wind... when pushing max right-rudder it pitches and twitches. Even with max left-rudder it won't turn around against the wind. Comes back for a hard landing being careful not to sink to fast because then I WILL get into VRS...

Then the Gazelle...

I turn OFF the autopilot and SAS systems first!!! Hands-off cyclic take-off, no problems. Full right-rudder and she spins right without any pitching or twisting - SAS OFF. Then the super-duper powerful fenestron has no problem turning her around against the wind (any direction). Rock steady! Finally comes down FAST for landing, VRS not simulated in the Gazelle...

Soo Polychop - please - before You add any more eye candy snipers or something else to the Gazelle, first FIX the flight model - please!

Yes. I wouldn't like to gain reflexes with this flight model.

No need new features before complete flight model.

Not sure. I have a lot to learn about heli aerodynamics, but wouldn't high winds move the downwash and prevent vrs? If you're coming down vertically or with little groundspeed into the wind wouldn't the downwash be behind you not below?

Not sure. I have a lot to learn about heli aerodynamics, but wouldn't high winds move the downwash and prevent vrs? If you're coming down vertically or with little groundspeed into the wind wouldn't the downwash be behind you not below?

If hovering in to a 30 kt constant wind then yes: in such a case the helicopter has an airspeed of 30 kts and hence VRS is not a problem. If the air is turbulent then I guess the wind speed and direction would be variable, in which case VRS (and maybe LTE, too) might be a concern.

VRS is not modeled on the Gazelle.

Turn off wind and AP.

Hover at any alt.

Drop collective.

Descend vertical at 8 on the scale.

Pull collective, just above the ground and land.

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A second video of mine

Made another video of two comparison landings with the Gazelle and Huey respectively on a frigate. Same bad weather with 30 kts head-wind and MAX TURBULENCE. The ships are moving with 15 kts against the wind.

This is GREAT FUN especially in the Huey!

Notice how the light Gazelle makes serious damage (!) to the ship, even with a very soft landing. The heavier Huey on the other hand makes a less clean landing and bounces around on the deck afterwards BUT causes much less damage to the ship...

See also the great difference in needed controls-input when flying the different helicopters!

Not sure. I have a lot to learn about heli aerodynamics, but wouldn't high winds move the downwash and prevent vrs? If you're coming down vertically or with little groundspeed into the wind wouldn't the downwash be behind you not below?

Yes. with so much headwind, you can't VRS.so the first remark of Fredo is not relevant. I haven't been able though to really vrs with the Gazelle. Even when you think you are settling in, a pull on the collective is always getting you out of it, so I guess it isn't simulated properly yet. Unless there is something about the Gazelle I don't know since I am not a gazelle pilot irl.

I am not saying the gazelle fm model is perfect or finished, but most of the people I have seen complaining about it are always flying this module in ridiculous conditions. You are another example.

Here's an earlier thread on the subject.

https://forums.eagle.ru/showthread.php?t=172581&highlight=vrs

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30 kts and turbulence is not ridiculous!

But what IS ridiculous, is a helicopter without SAS - spinning around it's own axis with full-right/left-rudder, hands-off the cyclic - and NOT pitching or twisting the least in such conditions...

Luckily this is only an early-release yet... and since Polychop are such serious guys I'm happily waiting for them to complete this unfinished flight model, because it's missing some vital parts in it!

I remember reading somewhere, the FM is finished and approved by a pilot, but I can't find VRS when I fly in it.

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It can't be "finished" - it's missing vital parts in it (and VRS is not even the most important of them)...

If Polychop claims it's "finished" - I will never buy from them again (which would be sad, because I WAS really looking forward to the Bo105)

You are not aware of the whole story, the FM may not be perfect but REAL military gazelle pilots have said that it was pretty close the the real thing. Please give them break, FM fixes are not done in a week...

If you have some documentation on the gazelle FM or real videos demonstrating the "missing vital parts" share them with the team and i'm sure they will look into it and even say thank you. They can't tweak the FM with a "this is not right".

I've done what I can to help, please watch my first video.

What I wanted to show with it, is how the Gazelle doesn't react to the wind hitting it from different directions. Even with SAS turned off, I'm spinning it around without touching the cyclic and it's rock steady... The larger heavier Huey on the other hand responds as one would have expected, it pitches and twitches in the turbulent winds. The Gazelle is just "dead in the air"...

You are not aware of the whole story, the FM may not be perfect but REAL military gazelle pilots have said that it was pretty close the the real thing. Please give them break, FM fixes are not done in a week...

 

If you have some documentation on the gazelle FM or real videos demonstrating the "missing vital parts" share them with the team and i'm sure they will look into it and even say thank you. They can't tweak the FM with a "this is not right".

I am very much aware of the whole story, it still does not make the FM more realistic. Sorry.

I have also provided the devs with as much feedback as I can, I did so from day one. At first I did not feel taken seriously at all. Felt like: "You are not a real Gazelle Pilot, we wont listen to you". At least now they said "we will look at it".

First of all...hard to take a person seriously when you have a Donald Duck avatar...that dude is hilarious. Am I the only one reading Fredo's threads with a Donald Duck voice?

Anyways, nobody said the FM is finished. There are just parts of it that take longer to work on then others. Sometimes getting to 90% is good...but that last 10% can take twice as long as getting to 90% took. It's the same thing in this case. The current FM took a long time to get to, so making updates is going to take time.

Also keep in mind that we also check everything with people who actually fly and work on Gazelle's. While it's easy to sit back and say something should do something, we want to get the pilots view and mechanical view of it. So it takes time, because most of the these people are actually working to protect their countries.

We've documented all your concerns, and we'll work on them once we get the information we need to fix them.

TLDR: Be patient.

It can't be "finished" - it's missing vital parts in it (and VRS is not even the most important of them)...

 

If Polychop claims it's "finished" - I will never buy from them again (which would be sad, because I WAS really looking forward to the Bo105)

Thank You Poly_Roie!

That's all I wanted to hear (for now)!

You have noticed my concerns, take them seriously and plans to do something.

Then I am all fine and can stay patient for a little longer time...:)

Anyways, nobody said the FM is finished.

 

One of your chaps said, the FM is considered to be finished and deemed to be "good enough" and has been checked by a pilot.

But we wont dwell on it.

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Getting tired of these type of posts, you can't compare the Gazelle to the Huey or any other DCS heli, they are different animals

A good read, ttps://books.google.com/books?id=QvIaAgAAQBAJ&pg=PA79&lpg=PA79&dq#v=onepage&q&f=false

and from what I can tell the modeling of the Gazelle is pretty close to how it should behave

It shouldn't pitch with rudder input as the Fan blows air horizontally and not angles like the majority of most other heli's along with the SAS that counters it

VRS is also countered by the shape of the tail - it disrupts the airflow blowing down and under the aircraft so there is lessened vrs effect

Getting tired of these type of posts, you can't compare the Gazelle to the Huey or any other DCS heli, they are different animals

 

A good read, ttps://books.google.com/books?id=QvIaAgAAQBAJ&pg=PA79&lpg=PA79&dq#v=onepage&q&f=false

 

and from what I can tell the modeling of the Gazelle is pretty close to how it should behave

 

It shouldn't pitch with rudder input as the Fan blows air horizontally and not angles like the majority of most other heli's along with the SAS that counters it

 

VRS is also countered by the shape of the tail - it disrupts the airflow blowing down and under the aircraft so there is lessened vrs effect

I am getting tired of your kind of posts. You once again claim we compare the Gazelle to Huey or other DCS helicopters, which is not true. I am referring to fundamental flight-characteristics that *every* helicopter shares, in DCS, in X-Plane, and in IRL (never tried FSX).

Why don't you tells us more details about "from what you can tell"? I would be very interested to learn why the gazelle is only reacting to pitch and roll on cyclic input, no blowback, no pitch change in collective drop and raise.

Noone ever said it should pitch with rudder input, but should induce a roll component with the input, while pitch-change could very well be the consequence of a roll momentum (if you roll right without countering the nose would eventually drop, the induced slip component would have consequences too). Maybe you should read more carefully before you post such things?

I read the section on VRS and tail, and I fail to follow the books author. It reads as if he was referring to the main rotors Vortex Ring ( = downwash, no State, this is permanent) as VRS, which is basically confusing two things. There are indeed states of flight in helicopters where the downwash can effect tailrotor effectiveness/efficiency (however you wanna name it), but none of these have to do with the Vortex Ring State, which basically describes the helicopter being caught in his own vortex, which cannot be countered with power alone, but the pilots needs to fly out of the vortex if altitude is suffiecent. (off topic, you can use the tailrotor thrust to get out of VRS, once in it, apply max-power, left pedal and right cyclic on left turning rotors, right pedal and left cyclic on right turning systems, no matter of fenestron or not)

Did you not notice at all that in the section the book refers to vrs, it is actually talking about flying sideways to the left in a left-turning rotor-system? This describes a completely different phenomenon than what you are talking about.

Once again, if you have viable points countering the things I have brought up, I am very very happy to learn I am wrong. However, please bring up valid points against things that have actually been brought up, before you claim you're getting tired.

That book seems interesting nevertheless, thank you!

Or we can stop dev bashing and let them finish as already said, No wonder devs never share anything with us.............................

Or we can stop dev bashing and let them finish as already said, No wonder devs never share anything with us.............................

Bravo. :thumbup:

Or we can stop dev bashing and let them finish as already said, No wonder devs never share anything with us.............................

srsly, all I'm doing is defending my points. I always said its fine that things take time, I do not think I am bashing the devs, and I am certainly not intending to shed bad light on anyone. I only have rather high expectations to a helicopter-sim released in 2016.

That said: an official anouncement by the devs acknoledging a list of things we continue to bring up again and again may shut this whole discussion once and forever. I think we've discussed this long enough, with no valid counterpoints being brought up so far at all.

Im not saying your not, All im saying is let them look into and lets wait, We should learn to be less impatient :)

Please don't mistake reporting potential bugs and unusual behavior for "dev bashing".

We all want their current and future modules to shine as we have invested time, money and effort to support it. :thumbup:

The way I see it, the more info we can give Polychop now the easier time they have validating it through their sources when time comes for that. Supporting claims with videos and documents will only ease their labor.

First of all...hard to take a person seriously when you have a Donald Duck avatar...that dude is hilarious. Am I the only one reading Fredo's threads with a Donald Duck voice?

 

Anyways, nobody said the FM is finished. There are just parts of it that take longer to work on then others. Sometimes getting to 90% is good...but that last 10% can take twice as long as getting to 90% took. It's the same thing in this case. The current FM took a long time to get to, so making updates is going to take time.

 

Also keep in mind that we also check everything with people who actually fly and work on Gazelle's. While it's easy to sit back and say something should do something, we want to get the pilots view and mechanical view of it. So it takes time, because most of the these people are actually working to protect their countries.

 

We've documented all your concerns, and we'll work on them once we get the information we need to fix them.

 

TLDR: Be patient.

So why keep on about it if there working on it?