Touch and Go

After touch down, is it necessary to extend the nose wheel before the “Go”? Or, does your speed make it unnecessary?

After touch down, is it necessary to extend the nose wheel before the “Go”? Or, does your speed make it unnecessary?

The only thing extending the wheel does is shorten the takeoff roll so no need to do it unless needed for a shorter takeoff. Never while your doing a touch and go

The only thing extending the wheel does is shorten the takeoff roll so no need to do it unless needed for a shorter takeoff. Never while your doing a touch and go

So, your speed after touch down makes the extension unnecessary. That’s what I thought.

Thanks,

You actually do not let the nose wheel touch down...

Check 26` 10...

You actually do not let the nose wheel touch down...

Check 26` 10...

 

Damn, that was impressive. The pilot there must have shoved the throttles to mil right as he felt the mains touch down. In DCS, at least, the nose seems to want to drop a lot on touchdown if you get more than ~10 knots below final approach speed.

Yep, you pretty much have the energy and the available runway to just power up and rotate safely!

A good flair will have true plans right on the edge of flight. If your nose is coming down with the mains you’re either too nose high or flairing too high. The F-5 does need a lot of stick or trim for take off depending on weight. Watch your airspeed.

The F-5 does need a lot of stick or trim for take off depending on weight. Watch your airspeed.

Should already be trimmed out, because he just touched down. All there is to do is, Power up and the thing should pretty much leave the runway on it's own.

When doing touch-and-goes the nose gear shouldn't even touch the runway. It takes some practice, but the mains should gently kiss the pavement for a split second, then you're off again with little/no change in AoA or attitude.

When doing touch-and-goes the nose gear shouldn't even touch the runway. It takes some practice, but the mains should gently kiss the pavement for a split second, then you're off again with little/no change in AoA or attitude.

If you touch down at idle, with the speed decreasing and no or little attitude change, how can you be airborne again within a split second? ;)

Furthermore an important part during the touch and go is to lower the nose to the takeoff attitude or even lower after the mainwheel touchdown.

I take it you've never seen videos of real F-5s doing touch and go's:

Furthermore an important part during the touch and go is to lower the nose to the takeoff attitude or even lower after the mainwheel touchdown.

You should be aerobraking anyway, so the nose should not come down until below 100kts or so. Which means you're already committed to a full-stop....this isn't a Cessna.

I take it you've never seen videos of real F-5s doing touch and go's:

You should be aerobraking anyway, so the nose should not come down until below 100kts or so. Which means you're already committed to a full-stop....this isn't a Cessna.

Did you actually watch the videos you posted the links for? Especially when looking at the first, very good video, you would notice that

1. the 'split second' on ground lasts (at least) 4sec

2. that the nose is correctly lowered below the touchdown attitude during the touch & go.

You don't want to become airborne (and out of ground effect!) in a semi stalled aerobraking attitude.

Don't know why you would be commited to a full stop landing once the nosewheel is on the ground, since this is the way you are doing touch & gos on many jets and e.g. with most, if not all airliners.

Touch and goes usually remain in a two-point attitude throughout touchdown to liftoff. Should you technically transition between the landing or rollout attitude to the liftoff attitude if that's a meaningful distinction? Probably but no one is going to "bust" a pilot. The touchdown or aero attitude is perfectly safe to takeoff from. You're going to hit the tail on the runway before there's any other danger from high pitch attitude.

The kind of touch and go you do depends on your goal. Is it just a way to practice landing and continue flight? Is it practicing a rejected landing? Is it practicing a rejected landing from the 3-point attitude? All are valid but most touch and goes are the simplest method to continue flight after touchdown and established in the two point attitude. There's no time requirement for a touch and go to be correct be it a single bounce or rolling 50% of the runway length. There's absolutely no requirement to lower the nose to the runway unless you're demonstrating something specific that requires that.

You're going to hit the tail on the runway before there's any other danger from high pitch attitude.

Tailstrike on the F-5 will occur at 15deg. Max AoA is ~11deg (without flaps!) so I'm not sure if a 15deg unstick attitude would work IRL. Even the recommended 12deg aerobraking attitude seems to be rather risky.

When doing touch-and-goes the nose gear shouldn't even touch the runway. It takes some practice, but the mains should gently kiss the pavement for a split second, then you're off again with little/no change in AoA or attitude.

It looks cool and shows good pilot skills, but it's definitely not mandatory, more a show-off. You see military pilots do t+g like that quite often. Civilian pilots normally lower the nose, especially in training, because sink rate, speed, lack of elevator control or a combination of those three force them to. But it's ok, you perform touch and goes to practice landings, so there's nothing wrong with lowering the nosewheel, rolling a few meters and then recommit to take-off. I've done nose-up t+g with Cessnas, Pipers and Katanas here and there though.

It looks cool and shows good pilot skills, but it's definitely not mandatory, more a show-off.

Don't agree that doing a touch & go according to procedure has anything to do with showing off.

Lowering the nose onto the runway with the F-5E would result in a takeoff with a dehiked nose gear. This increases the rotation speed by 25% and the takeoff roll by 50%.

Don't agree that doing a touch & go according to procedure has anything to do with showing off.

Lowering the nose onto the runway with the F-5E would result in a takeoff with a dehiked nose gear. This increases the rotation speed by 25% and the takeoff roll by 50%.

Does aerobraking not reduce the effectiveness of the engine thrust since you’re adding drag from the fuselage underside and stabilators being deflected up, though?

Does aerobraking not reduce the effectiveness of the engine thrust since you’re adding drag from the fuselage underside and stabilators being deflected up, though?

Not significantly since the difference in pitch attitude during aerobraking and taking off with the hiked nosegear is rather small.

Furthermore the stabilators are almost parallel to the runway surface during aerobraking.

Don't agree that doing a touch & go according to procedure has anything to do with showing off.

Lowering the nose onto the runway with the F-5E would result in a takeoff with a dehiked nose gear. This increases the rotation speed by 25% and the takeoff roll by 50%.

This is why I asked the original question. Admittedly, I was thinking how it is done in a Cessna, at the time. So, if not lowering the nose wheel is the way to go, there is no reason to worry about the nose extension. Glad I learned something.

Lowering the nose onto the runway with the F-5E would result in a takeoff with a dehiked nose gear. This increases the rotation speed by 25% and the takeoff roll by 50%.

That's true. However, on a standard NATO runway of about 2500m that shouldn't be a big issue.

Touch and goes in the F-5 or pretty much any other pointy fighter type jet where the nose wheel comes into contact with the runway are hen's teeth rare. There's no reason.

T-1 trainer touch and go

MD-11 touch and go.

AWACS touch and go

I don't know why you provided these links since they aren't even remotely similar to the F-5 or any other fighter.

There are a few important reasons why you don't keep the nose up with these planes.

1. You need to re-configure the flaps and/or spoilers and stab trim which requires quite a bit of time.

2. The engines are not mounted at or almost at the fuselage centerline and you definitely don't want to risk an uneven spool up, or even worse an engine failure, while the nosewheel is in the air.

3. In none of these aircraft aerobraking is the normal landing or touch and go procedure.

Not adding to the discussion, just a nice video:

The correct technique in any fighter doing a touch and go is to hold the landing attitude and apply MIL the moment you feel the mains touchdown.

DCS/the F-5 has a PROBLEM in that touching down causes an immediate pitch down reaction, as if the landing gear is 10 ft behind the aircraft rather than below, or even slightly ahead of the center of pressure/CoG.

The aircraft if trimmed and the speed is stable, should enter ground effect, and hardly if at all, show a pitching motion on touchdown of the main wheels.

Many aircraft in DCS exhibit this sudden pitch change making me think it's something in DCS rather than the module.