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Old 02-12-2020, 10:39 AM   #11
Oldahpilot
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Quote:
Originally Posted by gazpad View Post
Thank you Oldahpilot for your well formulated post. You clearly have a lot of experience to share and I am happy to read more about it.

I heard the story of the Gazelle which lost the TR drive and realized it only half an hour later.

For the DCS Huey I would really like to see anyone demonstrate a power on landing with a clipped tailrotor.

I had to try few times after coming too close to a tree/fence/ground during hard quick stops and it was always a huge relief flipping that fuel cutoff switch after spinning few times all around the place.

In the DCS Gazelle it would actually be really helpful to have a manual TR drive failure mode as I have not managed yet to fail the fenestron otherwise.
You're welcome Gazpad.

I currently fly the EC135P2 (now airbus) which has a massive shaped fin, you can really feel its effect. No tail rotor failure with it yet, in fact the only total tail rotor failure I've experienced apart from in the sim was a Lynx Mk7 in the hover taxi, we landed upright after a full rotation, co-pilot got the ECLs back (throttles) and we walked away so it was a good one.
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Old 02-12-2020, 04:57 PM   #12
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Originally Posted by Oldahpilot View Post
You're welcome Gazpad.

I currently fly the EC135P2 (now airbus) which has a massive shaped fin, you can really feel its effect. No tail rotor failure with it yet, in fact the only total tail rotor failure I've experienced apart from in the sim was a Lynx Mk7 in the hover taxi, we landed upright after a full rotation, co-pilot got the ECLs back (throttles) and we walked away so it was a good one.
The Lynx story sounds like it might have slightly raised your heartbeat when it happened.

For the stuck pedal exercise, might sound stupid but i really need to focus (too much) to keep my feet still to simulate it. Otherwise I get that "Forget what my feet are doing" effect and just move them automaticaly where they dont belong for the exercise.

So a little support from the Sim would help here... It's great to practice "no pedal" takeoff and landings already though.

Will have to demonstrate stuck pedal soon on checkride on H269...
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Old 02-13-2020, 08:07 AM   #13
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Just back into an object (mostly) works for Mi8, Huey and Gaz.
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Old 02-13-2020, 06:00 PM   #14
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Just back into an object (mostly) works for Mi8, Huey and Gaz.
Well A) That's not something I want to get into the habit of doing

and B) That's not very reliable (often also lose main rotor), isn't necessarily easy, and also means you can only experience the failure starting from a very small flight envelope
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Old 02-14-2020, 02:45 AM   #15
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Originally Posted by Nightwolf View Post
Well A) That's not something I want to get into the habit of doing

and B) That's not very reliable (often also lose main rotor), isn't necessarily easy, and also means you can only experience the failure starting from a very small flight envelope
No one said it was perfect with some skill you'll get it, you don't need to put the heli in R for race and plant the boot a gentle approach is best. Besides get creative dink the tail rotor on a tall building, landing on those cranes in NTTR or on top of those tall buildings there is always something to try.

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Old 02-15-2020, 07:39 AM   #16
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In the Huey, that tiny tail fin isn't sufficient to keep the aircraft flying with a loss of tail rotor, even in cruise flight. Thankfully I've never experienced one, but when we run the scenario in our sim, the aircraft immediately veers right and tucks the nose (simulating the change in C of G from the weight of the tail rotor departing the aircraft).

It is extremely hard to recover unless you immediately drop the collective and roll off the throttles into autorotation. Perhaps there would be scenarios of low power settings (ie descent) at high speeds where it would be marginally controllable, but maintaining cruise flight or a climb isn't going to happen! Our current fleet has only had a few cases of this, all resulted in very hard landings / crashes.
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Old 02-15-2020, 11:51 AM   #17
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From memory, the Flight Manual said continued flight to a suitable location was possible above 40 kias.

That was for a loss of TR drive, not for actual loss of the TR components.

A lot less torque in the -1H than the 412.

Don't remember a checklist action for loss of TR components such as rotors, hub and gearbox...
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Old 02-20-2020, 12:06 PM   #18
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Quote:
Originally Posted by HuggyBear View Post
From memory, the Flight Manual said continued flight to a suitable location was possible above 40 kias.

That was for a loss of TR drive, not for actual loss of the TR components.

A lot less torque in the -1H than the 412.

Don't remember a checklist action for loss of TR components such as rotors, hub and gearbox...
If it's possible, it would be a heck of a ride!! Our checklist is the same for loss of drive as well as components (we just call it loss of tail rotor thrust). The only real difference is the change of C of G causes a nose tuck if you lose components since the moment arm is so long.

Edit: Just found a UH-1H flight manual online, you're correct - it states the following:

Quote:
9-21. Complete Loss of Tall Rotor Thrust This situation
involves a break in the drive system, such as a severed
driveshaft, wherein the tail rotor stops turning or
tail rotor controls fail with zero thrust a Indications.
(1) In-Flight.
(a) Pedal input has no effect on helicopter
trim.
(b) Nose of the helicopter turns to the right
(left sideslip).
(c) Roll of fuselage along the longitudinal
axis.
(d) Nose down tucking will also be
present.
WARNING
At airspeeds below 30 to 40 knots,
the sideslip may become
uncontrollable, and the helicopter will
begin to revolve on the vertical axis
(right or left depending on power,
gross weight, etc.).
(2) Hover.
Helicopter heading cannot be controlled with pedals.
b. Procedures.
(1) In- Right.
(a) if safe landing area is not immediately
available and powered flight is possible, continue flight to
a suitable landing area at above minimum rate of
descent airspeed. Degree of roll and sideslip may be
varied by varying throttle and/or collective.
(b) When landing area is reached,
AUTORO TATE using an airspeed above minimum rate
of descent
CAUTION
The flare and the abrupt use of
collective will cause the nose to
rotate left, but do not correct with
throttle. Although application of
throttle will result In rotation to the
right, addition of power Is a very
strong response measure and Is too
sensitive for the pilot to manage
property at this time. DO NOT ADD
POWER ATTHIS TIME. Slight rotation
at time of impact at zero ground
speed should not cause any real
problem.
(c) If landing area is suitable, touchdown
at a ground speed above effective transitional lift utilizing
throttle as necessary to maintain directional control.
(d) If landing area is not suitable for a runon
lancing a minimum ground run autorotation must be
performed, enter autorotation descent (throttle off) start
to decelerate at about 75 feet altitude so that forward
ground speed is at a minimum when the helicopter
reaches 10 to 20 feet, execute the touchdown with a
rapid collective pull just prior to touchdown in a level
altitude with minimum ground speed.
Our checklist does call for power reduction to minimum, then autorotation if yaw is uncontrollable - it just always manifests ends up being uncontrollable!

There is also one for loss of components - it calls for immediate auto:

Quote:
9-23. Loss of Tail Rotor Components. The seventy
of this situation is dependent upon the amount of weight
lost. Any loss of this nature will result m a forward center
of gravity shift, requiring aft cyclic.
a. Indications:
(1) Varying degrees of right yaw depending on
power applied and airspeed at time of failure.
(2) Forward CG shift.
(3) Abnormal vibrations.
b. Procedures:
(1) Enter authoritative descent (power off).
(2) Maintain airspeed above minimum rate of
descent airspeed.
(3) If run-on landing is possible, complete
autorotation with a touchdown airspeed as required for
directional control.
(4) If run-on landing is not- possible, start to
decelerate from about 75 feet altitude, so that forward
groundspeed is at a minimum when the helicopter
reaches 10 to 20 feet; execute the termination with a
rapid collective pull just prior to touchdown in a level
attitude
with minimum ground speed.
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Old 02-20-2020, 06:12 PM   #19
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Tucking can be expected without a loss of components as well. The change in CG exagerates it but most helicopters will tuck the nose if at high speed and very out of trim because of the sideways-ish airflow. Atleast I know a 500 and a 206 will. Never tried it in a Huey.
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Old 02-20-2020, 08:00 PM   #20
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Oldahpilot View Post
in fact the only total tail rotor failure I've experienced apart from in the sim was a Lynx Mk7 in the hover taxi, we landed upright after a full rotation, co-pilot got the ECLs back (throttles) and we walked away so it was a good one.
Is that the one RAF made a video about? (Maintenance error and hard pressure due to upcomming excercise, if I recall it correctly ?) I’ve been shown that vid’ a couple of times in my AF.
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