Why is it So hard to land the MI 8 - Page 4 - ED Forums
 


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Old 07-10-2018, 11:38 AM   #31
thrustvector
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man, that was good, its the hover that I still need to perfect, but she a good old bird, just treat her carefully and slowly does it......or go b**ls out like above of course . gotta go try that now
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Old 07-10-2018, 10:33 PM   #32
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One of the errors one easily make is comming in too high.
Also note that the scale of the VSI is different and more course than for the UH-1D.
As You deccelerate, pepare to add collective as You come out of translational lift.
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Old 07-11-2018, 12:25 AM   #33
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Originally Posted by WildBillKelsoe View Post
sorry for taking long to answer. the chart is not accurate. I used it to convey that as you reduce your collective, you taper the reduction, not slice it. Meaning:

If in hover your % of collective is 100%, you drop down to 90% then immediately go back to 95%. This should "arrest" your descent or sink rate. But I am sure you already knew this. Like in hornet.
Roger get it now, I try to keep VSI as constant as I can by bleeding just enough collective as needed to regulate VSI in practice they are likely representative but understand that method.


One thing to note for landing the Mi8 even the KA 50 both are 10 ish tones of helicopter, is the fact that decent rate will increase significantly when you drop collective and the VSI is really showing the past not the exact present so it is very easy to fall through 3 meters per second rate.


I try to keep VSI around 2 to 3 metres per second whilst still in ETL (>100K) however below ETL (<60K) stick with 1 to 2 metres per second and err closer to the 1 meter per second till about 3 to 5 metres above ground then 0.5 meters per second or less. Ideally The Mi8 has enough power to vertically hover all day IGE.


There is good reasoning to keep the VSI low you only have limited power and limited energy stored in the rotor deplete either and you are stuffed. O/P try landing with one engine she becomes interesting I tend to halve or more those VSI rates.


Also depending on the input device your using for collective you might consider applying some curvature to expand the range of movement of input device to change of value. This will give a more fine input at the lower end of travel and avoid the sudden drop off onto the ground. I found that very useful when using the "slider" input on my old logitech joystick as collective.

Doing so doesn't really effect the top end/cruse that much either, it may make setting power for cruse a tad finicky but you have time to deal with it where as when landing you don't.

Anyway that's got me enthused to take the Mi8 out for some fun.
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Old 07-12-2018, 01:12 AM   #34
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Having just bought the Mi-8 and I don't know all the procedural stuff all that well, but just trying to fly the thing, I found it pretty straight forward to transition into a hover and land by increasing the engine condition levers to the upper positions rather than center.. and back down to center for anything but takeoff and landing. Before I looked around and saw the two engine condition levers I was plummeting into the ground anytime I got close to hover speed.

I had to look them up in the manual or I'd have referred to them as throttles based on my Ka-50 experience, but full up = Take off power, makes sense to me to use that setting if I want to hover or land.

Personally, I disagree with any curves on the collective. I need that axis to remain constant throughout the entire throw in any DCS chopper.
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Old 07-12-2018, 01:38 AM   #35
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Headwarp View Post
Having just bought the Mi-8 and I don't know all the procedural stuff all that well, but just trying to fly the thing, I found it pretty straight forward to transition into a hover and land by increasing the engine condition levers to the upper positions rather than center.. and back down to center for anything but takeoff and landing. Before I looked around and saw the two engine condition levers I was plummeting into the ground anytime I got close to hover speed.

I had to look them up in the manual or I'd have referred to them as throttles based on my Ka-50 experience, but full up = Take off power, makes sense to me to use that setting if I want to hover or land.

Personally, I disagree with any curves on the collective. I need that axis to remain constant throughout the entire throw in any DCS chopper.
Interesting I have never had to do that in normal flight. Usually you fall if you didn't anticipate for loss of lift as you come out of ETL.


Each to their own on the collective and curves but if your using a short throw control AKA a slider or such you might find the finer rate control at the start of collective travel to be helpful especially starting off at pickup set down and hover, besides the upper portion tends to be compressed in terms of effect verses travel anyway with or without curves.
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Old 07-12-2018, 02:01 AM   #36
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Originally Posted by FragBum View Post
Interesting I have never had to do that in normal flight. Usually you fall if you didn't anticipate for loss of lift as you come out of ETL.


Each to their own on the collective and curves but if your using a short throw control AKA a slider or such you might find the finer rate control at the start of collective travel to be helpful especially starting off at pickup set down and hover, besides the upper portion tends to be compressed in terms of effect verses travel anyway with or without curves.
I find that the curve tends to throw of my sense of how much power I'm actually applying as you move away from the center of the curve. Perhaps my WH throttle does provide a longer throw than say an x55 or something, but I do find it much easier to control my climb/descent with a linear axis for the collective personally even if it does take learning to make gentle/small corrections. My experiences adding a curve had me all over the place. It's hard to describe, just the changing length of throttle movement for x amount of power increase/decrease at different positions in the throttle threw me off, personally.


And normal flight keeping the ECL's @ center is fine.. could fly til it ran out of fuel. It's just when approaching hover that I need to move them up, if not to max/take off power just beneath it.

IDK if you're supposed to leave them centered for runway approach, but she's easier to whip around at low speeds near the ground with the ECL's up. Certainly easier to maintain a controlled descent rather than fall like a rock if the OP is struggling.
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Old 07-12-2018, 02:24 AM   #37
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Originally Posted by Headwarp View Post
I find that the curve tends to throw of my sense of how much power I'm actually applying as you move away from the center of the curve. Perhaps my WH throttle does provide a longer throw than say an x55 or something, but I do find it much easier to control my climb/descent with a linear axis for the collective personally even if it does take learning to make gentle/small corrections. My experiences adding a curve had me all over the place. It's hard to describe, just the changing length of throttle movement at different positions in the throttle threw me off, personally.
Yes it would be a learned experience or at least muscle memory for position to power I just remember when I used a logitech 3D pro the slider had maybe 70deg travel and was about 10mm (3/8') in length. It was ridiculous

I actually still use some curve with a full size collective just to fine tune it.

I'm now trying to make the V-Sim pit more ergonomic rather than outright model accurate besides I'd have to make multiple V-Sim pits and that wouldn't fly.


Quote:
And normal flight keeping the ECL's @ center is fine.. could fly til it ran out of fuel. It's just when approaching hover that I need to move them up, if not to max/take off power just beneath it.

IDK if you're supposed to leave them centered for runway approach, but she's easier to whip around at low speeds near the ground with the ECL's up.
Do you get increased EGT and how much time can you operate like that?

<edit>
note to self yes EGT increases but don't put them to low when flying it's outright dangerous,..
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Old 07-12-2018, 02:38 AM   #38
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Quote:
Originally Posted by FragBum View Post
Yes it would be a learned experience or at least muscle memory for position to power I just remember when I used a logitech 3D pro the slider had maybe 70deg travel and was about 10mm (3/8') in length. It was ridiculous

I actually still use some curve with a full size collective just to fine tune it.

I'm now trying to make the V-Sim pit more ergonomic rather than outright model accurate besides I'd have to make multiple V-Sim pits and that wouldn't fly.




Do you get increased EGT and how much time can you operate like that?

<edit>
note to self yes EGT increases but don't put them to low when flying it's outright dangerous,..
I honestly need to likely check the manual for what EGT to stay under and how long, but it's not like you're just going to be holding the collective at max, the power is there if you start to stumble but I was able to taxi around an airport wheels off the ground like I was in a huey. It takes less collective to achieve the lift to stay afloat with the ECL up.

I feel like it's safe to say you can stay within the EGT limits for the majority of your time spent in a hover or descending at take off power. But that's just my best guess. If I started to enter anything resembling a vortex it only took at most a few seconds of what might be unsafe limits to sort myself out. But, I feel way less likely to hear that shakey sound at all with the ECL's @ take-off.
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Old 07-12-2018, 02:57 AM   #39
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Yes you can work within EGT just fine the increase in rotor RPM might be a gotcha as you may more easily over rev the rotor with attendant gen # fail yada yada.

More experimenting to do.
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Old 07-12-2018, 03:32 AM   #40
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Absolutely worth checking I can vouch you sink like a rock if you put them to idle at hover dam VR and mouse make things interesting.

All good I learnt something new, off to make my Bechamel source for my Moussaka.
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