V or VP

As title says.

A Hind V or VP module would be amazing.

Personally even better then the P we are getting and let’s make this module as amazing as possible ED by making the three different variants.

Thnx and keep up the great work!

I'd love to see this as an addon module similar to the Ka-50: BS3 or A-10C II after work on the P has been done.

I would love to see this done similar to how the gazelle has multiple variants. but first things first

Yeah I would love to see a V further down the line, something with the gun in a turret - I know it's less effective than the fixed GSh-30-2K on the side, but to me it just does look right seeing a hind without the chin-mounted turret.

Plus, to my knowledge, the V and the P are otherwise completely identical, just with different guns. Plus the V is also the most numerous version AFAIK.

I would love a V as well. Anyone knows what changes need to be made for the V variant? Changing the exterior model ofc but I was thinking more of things inside the cockpit.

I would love a V as well. Anyone knows what changes need to be made for the V variant? Changing the exterior model ofc but I was thinking more of things inside the cockpit.

AFAIK none, they're identical. Inside the cockpit AFAIK. The gunners cockpit will need to be redone due to the flexible sight (which means the instruments up front will need to be moved).

+1 on the VP version ...... twin 23mm cannon on a turret would be excellent

For defense against small targets like infantry with MANPADs of heavy machine guns - movable 12,7mm turret is far more effective than fixed 30mm gun.

Against such targets discovered i.e. at your 9 o'clock when it starts shooting, having fixed cannon it's already too late. Before you manage to turn 90° and maneuver precisely to aim for the target with the whole helicopter you are already dead or crippled.

For what 30mm fixed cannon could be use you are better using unguided rockets instead, and Hind carries huge amount of unguided rockets.

I may have been doing something wrong but in my experience from Ka-50 and Huey even a fixed cannon was more accurate than rockets.

The 12,7 mm is enough for most targets, not enough for highly armored targets as AP penetration is only 10-16 mm at 500-1000 meters, but firerate and capabilities to engaged quickly targets by spraying across them is big benefit.

Was it accurate? Enough to kill at good range. But 30 mm of course offers more effectiveness against all, but you just don't have flexibility.

KA-50 with even limited cannon aiming angles is effective enough for many cases, but I still could consider it is more because accuracy in automatic tracking than 30 mm alone.

For defense against small targets like infantry with MANPADs of heavy machine guns - movable 12,7mm turret is far more effective than fixed 30mm gun.

 

Against such targets discovered i.e. at your 9 o'clock when it starts shooting with fixed cannon it's already too late. Before you manage to turn 90° and maneuver precisely to aim for the target with the whole helicopter you are already dead or crippled.

 

For what 30mm fixed cannon could be use you are better using unguided rockets instead, and Hind carries huge amount of rockets.

That's what also make sense for me.

Although the 12,7mm turret is a relatively small caliber, it is more versatile weapon than the 30mm side mounted fixed cannon, which seems purelly for offensive purpose...

Well, as a child I recall playing a certain helicopter sim from 1996/1998 that modeled a MI-24V and the 12,7 mm turret gun was very useful in dealing with infantry and pop-up threats during ingress and egress to/from the objective, without having to alter the aircraft's course. :)

Well, as a child I recall playing a certain helicopter sim from 1996/1998 that modeled a MI-24V and the 12,7 mm turret gun was very useful in dealing with infantry and pop-up threats during ingress and egress to/from the objective, without having to alter the aircraft's course. :)

That’s where my love for the Hind started as wel. I remember playing ARMA in an online community years later and talking about this game. Someone said he was actually one of the devs of Hind.... what are the odds! Was great to talk to the guy about development et cetera back in the days.

+1

Yes, an additional MI-24V version would be really nice! I would also prefer the 12,7mm turret over the the 30mm fixed cannon.

It would be very interesting... I'm kindof interested in trying a D with 9M17 missiles... but the changes required are likely not worth the effort.

A Mi-24V with the 12.7mm gun would be quite interesting... especially if jamming is modelled (They often didn't carry the full ammunition load because it was too prone to jam). The ability to provide off-boresight suppression against MANPADs, infantry, and associated soft vehicles *would* still be useful though! It is also quite iconic.

Well, as a child I recall playing a certain helicopter sim from 1996/1998 that modeled a MI-24V and the 12,7 mm turret gun was very useful in dealing with infantry and pop-up threats during ingress and egress to/from the objective, without having to alter the aircraft's course. :)

Especially true if that was some "cheeky barstid" trying to aim a Stinger tube at you... every ms of reaction time here counts and can make a whole lotta difference, even if you don't hit him - he'll at least crap his pants. With having to align the whole 10-11 tons first, you might loose that duel quite easily before even getting to pull the trigger.

The 12.7mm gun just wasn't very good. It had a limited movement range, rudimentary aiming and was very, very prone to jamming. There's no way you'll get Mohammed al-Stinger ducking before he sends a spicy tree branch up your engine.

The 12.7mm gun just wasn't very good. It had a limited movement range, rudimentary aiming and was very, very prone to jamming. There's no way you'll get Mohammed al-Stinger ducking before he sends a spicy tree branch up your engine.

And apart from that was not a very powerful weapon, that was first seen in Afghanistan where mujahideen covering behind mud brick walls were secure from 12.7mm fire, but got totally nailed by the 30mm gun.

The 12.7mm gun just wasn't very good. It had a limited movement range, rudimentary aiming and was very, very prone to jamming. There's no way you'll get Mohammed al-Stinger ducking before he sends a spicy tree branch up your engine.

If we leave the mechanical problems in gun aside, the turret is always faster to aim than a rotating whole helicopter (especially in high speed forward) toward threat to shoot at it. And sidenote: And I don't know what has KAMOV person smoked who made a claim that KA-50 can turn it's cannon faster at the target than AH-64 gunner can turn his cannon in turret. That literally follows the gunner helmet as fast as he can turn head.

So when you operate at the low level, short range, the 12,7mm will always win 30mm fixed one unless target is straight front of your reticle.

With training a gimballed turret becomes easier to shoot.

The problem is that MANPADS are not threat at front of the helicopter but more of a front. And if you have a high threat at front of you, why not use rockets or missile in first place to destroy it? A MBT aiming at you is no help to be reacted with 30mm cannon. Only maneuvering helps at that moment. Shilka at front and 30mm cannon is nice, as is volley of rockets if no time for missile.

But the point is that 12,7mm is more useful against lower tier threats that are scattered around front of you. No need to fly straight at the threat and keeping distance (and no change to keep longer distance).

Just a different tactics and so on.

Would just be nice to someday get the V variant as upgrade price, if only gunner cockpit is required to be changed for it. (And of course new modeling to changed recoil and direction.)

A Mi-24V with the 12.7mm gun would be quite interesting... especially if jamming is modelled (They often didn't carry the full ammunition load because it was too prone to jam). The ability to provide off-boresight suppression against MANPADs, infantry, and associated soft vehicles *would* still be useful though! It is also quite iconic.

The exact same gun is in a GUV-8700 gunpods, and those don't jam.

It is very reliable gun for it's purpose. Used even today because it simple design and reliability.

But what the feeding system did with full loadout of ammunition is always another case. As many weapons it is better leave few rounds less than full load. And you need to perform all kind precaution checks like knocking a magazine to make more sure that cartridges are free inside to avoid feeding problems.

So think about situation where you start firing and *snap*, when your ammo belt is cut and you need to land to reload the gun because one of chains got hanged up/jammed somewhere because full load.

So lower the ammunition count by 10-20% and you have more space for belt to bend and move.

What was the official Eagle Dynamics line for choosing the P variant over the V? I seem to remember reading it somewhere but can't recall why they chose the P over the V or VP...

My personal opinion is that in DCS world, with all its limitations of infantry and maybe even more importantly damage modeling, the 12.7mm would not be anywhere near as effective as it is in the real world. Also, there is complexity to consider. Modeling a rotating turret, sight, etc. is more time intensive and costly compared to a helicopter that simply doesnt feature one.

ED (or rather, Belsimtek, back in the research phase of the project) visited active duty regiments and spoke to both pilots and gunners, and were unanimously told that the 12.7mm machine gun is as good as ballast, so the crews recommended they model the 30mm cannon instead as that one was found to be very useful tactically.

While this isn't explicitly said, I suspect other Mi-24D and Mi-24V operators share this opinion, as there are a lot of photos of the helicopters flying either with the gun dismounted, or with 23mm cannon pods under the wings to compensate for the lack of firepower.

ED (or rather, Belsimtek, back in the research phase of the project) visited active duty regiments and spoke to both pilots and gunners, and were unanimously told that the 12.7mm machine gun is as good as ballast, so the crews recommended they model the 30mm cannon instead as that one was found to be very useful tactically.

 

 

While this isn't explicitly said, I suspect other Mi-24D and Mi-24V operators share this opinion, as there are a lot of photos of the helicopters flying either with the gun dismounted, or with 23mm cannon pods under the wings to compensate for the lack of firepower.

:yes:

и что? логику не понял. Мы уже писали почему выбрали П а не В. Здесь, на форуме. И причина не только в том, что пушка "убойней" пулемета.

В плюс также:

- гораздо более удобная кабина для пилотирования с операторского места (размещение приборного оборудования), что очень будет востребовано при игре в MP;

- возможность применять весь комплекс оружия с операторского места;

- пожелание строевых летчиков, летавших и на том, и на том))).

В документации как раз проблем нет, на В ее гораздо больше!

Да, с т.з. автоматизации расчета данных для стрельбы (как с НАР, так и со стрелково-пушечного вооружения), 35М в сравнении с 24П - небо и земля. Никто не спорит. Это просто вертолет с авионикой другого поколения. А также с винто-моторной группой - другого поколения. А также фюзеляж довольно значительно отличается.

Безусловно, полет в модели 35М будет более "современным", чем в 24П. Однако кроме "широты геймплея", чем Вы призываете руководствоваться при выборе модуля для разработки, есть еще другие критерии. С "П" или Ми-35М перевес в сторону "П" произошел во многом из-за гораздо большей доступности исходных материалов (как авионики, так и динамики) и "удаленности" от его новизны (лучше подальше от разборок с серьезными людьми, не смотря на то, что он (35М) экспортируется в некоторые страны). Ну и глядя в будущее, если вдруг встанет тема разработки игры "под войну на исторической территории", то 24П явно ближе к теме.

Чем отличается БРЭО "ВП" от ВРЭО "П"? практически ничем..Много что хотели туда воткнуть, но не ко времени видимо пришлось..Т.о. фактически системы автоматизации учета поправок нету (по базе цели, как в 24В): сначала прицелился "не туда", а потом и при стрельбе в течение одной очереди сильное понижение снарядов, т.к. энергия выстрела мала (плюсом этого было малая отдача, что при повороте пушки было не плохо - нос не водило сильно никуда). Да, калибр больше, чем 12.7. Но и понижение снарядов большое..сколько выпущенной массы АСП будет в цели? Мало.

Т.е. для эффективного применения авиационных пушек с малой энергией выстрела (что снимает некоторые проблемы для авиационной пушки) необходимы хорошие "мозги", которые бы автоматизировали учет поправок (как на AH-64: хоть и сильное понижение снарядов в сравнении с 2А42 (например), но поправки так считаются, что и на сравнительно больших дальностях эффективность высока). А на тот момент таких "мозгов" пока еще не было.

Неплохим продвижением вперед в сравнении с П стала доработка системы вооружения: была доработана для пуска АУР Р-60М и Р-73 уже как серийное решение, а не как доработка в ТЭЧ полка (как для П). Правда прицеливание по ВЦ - все равно только наведением носа вертолета на цель. Ночного оборудования - тоже еще не было. А кабина оператора ВП практически равна кабине оператора В (приборы сбоку). Ну и серия ВП была небольшая - 12штук!))

Поэтому, если бы и делать с подвижной пушкой вертолет (чтобы усилить /разнообразить геймплей), то конечно не ВП, а 35М. Краткий сравнительный анализ 35М и П, а также причины выбора П я описал выше.

А если говорить про доступность описаний и фото, то ВП гораздо ТРУДНЕЙ сделать, чем даже 35М.

про это мы точно писали почему. Кроме того, что там написано, добавлю;

1) материалов по П больше в доступе, значит делать удобней;

2) по отзывам летчиков, которые летали и на том, и на том, эффективность применения не давала таких результатов, на которые вероятно рассчитывает та часть пользователей, которая просит ВП. В отличие от современного -35М. Именно поэтому они что называется "не пошли"

Про какую "дичь" с допустимыми перемещениями Вы имеете ввиду? Хорошо бы описать или показать как-то.. я впервые слышу, т.к. занимаюсь не F-16.

What was the official Eagle Dynamics line for choosing the P variant over the V? I seem to remember reading it somewhere but can't recall why they chose the P over the V or VP...[/Quote]

 

Someone told that ED did interview some pilots who said that 12,7 mm wasn't so effective. So they made 30 mm instead.

 

But I don't believe it was that, but it was purely that majority of buyers are single player pilots and they get more out of it as they can use cannon as well as rockets. So more for a pilot than just rockets and gun pods.

 

I would have taken V as I could carry 23mm cannon pods when wanted to do gun strafing. But more likely I would use rockets and I would love capability to just use a "Visual Recon" red crosshair to "designate" targets for AI to fire.

 

So if I spot something, I could look at the general direction and press a ICS button that says over intercom "Look 2'clock, 1 kilometer" and AI would turn their vision in that area to search targets with much higher probability of spotting them.

 

Same way if I would look near unit I could "designate targets" as targets, like look 50 meters from a group of units and closest under crosshair would be designated as the target, like "Target that BTR-60".

 

My personal opinion is that in DCS world, with all its limitations of infantry and maybe even more importantly damage modeling, the 12.7mm would not be anywhere near as effective as it is in the real world. Also, there is complexity to consider. Modeling a rotating turret, sight, etc. is more time intensive and costly compared to a helicopter that simply doesnt feature one.

 

The weapon is already done. It is in Mi-8MTv2 (Belsimtek aka ED) did it.

And the AI is being redone, and if it receives a morality and will modifiers, then near impacts should affect the infantry morally, willing, and communication. So you can suppress enemy at least if not hitting them.

 

And infantry is far more easier in DCS to be destroyed by 30mm as infantry doesn't have cover. In reality infantry digs in to small dips and such, being completely in cover from 30 mm HE shells unless you hit them directly in that position. In that moment it doesn't matter much to hit them with 12,7 mm or 30 mm if you need basically direct hit. And as DCS doesn't model cover, the 12,7 mm is very effective. At least Kord in a Mi-8MTv2 as you can circle infantry and just kill them very quickly. It is just annoying as the can is so small in Kord that you cant deal multiple vehicles and all.

+1 for V for sure.