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Shooting down AI at 40km away with R-27ER


Bruce_D

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Probably they know their missiles are shitty :)

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Enemy firing AIM-120C

6 out of 10 generates a kill, but he only managed to fire 1 missile and the other 4 I killed him with R-73. He is Always on defensive.

This pretty much describes my struggle with Flankers in single player flying F-15C. I'm spamramming at good speed, cranking then end up hitting nothing or already beaming trying to survive. If I'm lucky I get splash, more probable is me getting hit, most BVR ends in WVR.

btw: No matter the altitude 40km is pretty close for BVR.

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This pretty much describes my struggle with Flankers in single player flying F-15C. I'm spamramming at good speed, cranking then end up hitting nothing or already beaming trying to survive. If I'm lucky I get splash, more probable is me getting hit, most BVR ends in WVR.

btw: No matter the altitude 40km is pretty close for BVR.

 

The AI is quite defensive. Spamraaming at 40km is very optimistic. Fire again once he turns in. You should have the overwhelming advantage within 20km.

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This pretty much describes my struggle with Flankers in single player flying F-15C. I'm spamramming at good speed, cranking then end up hitting nothing or already beaming trying to survive. If I'm lucky I get splash, more probable is me getting hit, most BVR ends in WVR.

btw: No matter the altitude 40km is pretty close for BVR.

 

In fact, the 40km is almost the maximum range for the missile in this especially situation. Try to replicate the situation and you will see.

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The AI is quite defensive. Spamraaming at 40km is very optimistic. Fire again once he turns in. You should have the overwhelming advantage within 20km.

I do fire at closer ranges too but then have to retreat and lose the lock due to their heaters flying around.

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In fact, the 40km is almost the maximum range for the missile in this especially situation. Try to replicate the situation and you will see.

Well, yes, I only said that it's close for BVR because the missiles are already flying from both sides. Also most of my BVR happen angels high and fast so 40km is not that much vs lower and slower.

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I agree,

 

Aim-120's should be far more effective at long range than in the dare I say, GAME.

 

If DCS is nerfing the missiles as some loyalty to the Russian jets then this needs to change if this is going to be truly heralded as a combat flight simulator.

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I agree,

 

Aim-120's should be far more effective at long range than in the dare I say, GAME.

 

If DCS is nerfing the missiles as some loyalty to the Russian jets then this needs to change if this is going to be truly heralded as a combat flight simulator.

 

I imagine that you are probably talking with no experience from using or designing the AIM-120 in the real World or have any confidential data regarding the missile or a clear understanding of how effective the seeker is against all kinds of variables. So you are basically stating your own beliefs which in simulator World count for zip.

 

While it is a common tone that missiles in DCS do not perform well in the guidance aspect it is more of a belief that maybe they should be doing better rather than 'this is how missiles should work'. If this is an issue then it is an issue shared by all missiles, the Russian missiles are affected by the very same issues that the AIM-120 is.

 

While you try and paint some strange picture that DCS is nerfing missiles to favour Russian planes, weirdly the AIM-120C is still the most effective missile in the SIM and the only player radar missile that barely suffers the chaff dice rollol.

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It's fun, if you listen to the most vocal people on the forum, ED is biased against Russian hardware AND against US hardware.... At the same time.

 

Recent example :

- ED has nerfed the AIM-120C to the advantage of the Russian jets

- ED has buffed the F-15C flight model to the disadvantage of the Russian jets.

 

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I imagine that you are probably talking with no experience from using or designing the AIM-120 in the real World or have any confidential data regarding the missile or a clear understanding of how effective the seeker is against all kinds of variables. So you are basically stating your own beliefs which in simulator World count for zip.

 

While it is a common tone that missiles in DCS do not perform well in the guidance aspect it is more of a belief that maybe they should be doing better rather than 'this is how missiles should work'. If this is an issue then it is an issue shared by all missiles, the Russian missiles are affected by the very same issues that the AIM-120 is.

 

While you try and paint some strange picture that DCS is nerfing missiles to favour Russian planes, weirdly the AIM-120C is still the most effective missile in the SIM and the only player radar missile that barely suffers the chaff dice rollol.

 

Relax, no one is trying to paint anything. Stop the drama please. I just confirmed it's effective range at 12 miles

 

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/AIM-120_AMRAAM

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Relax, no one is trying to paint anything. Stop the drama please. I just confirmed it's effective range at 12 miles

 

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/AIM-120_AMRAAM

 

Thanks for confirming I was getting worried, at least we can all sleep safe now you find a top secret link. :D

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Relax, no one is trying to paint anything. Stop the drama please. I just confirmed it's effective range at 12 miles

 

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/AIM-120_AMRAAM

FWIW, that citation (...With an effective range of about 12 miles (19 km)...) is referring to the AIM-7 at that point in the document.

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Relax, no one is trying to paint anything. Stop the drama please. I just confirmed it's effective range at 12 miles

 

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/AIM-120_AMRAAM

 

No. You confirmed the Sparrows effective range at 12 miles. Maybe read more careful.

 

Directly from your link:

"The AIM-7 Sparrow medium range missile (MRM) was purchased by the US Navy from original developer Hughes Aircraft in the 1950s as its first operational air-to-air missile with "beyond visual range" (BVR) capability. With an effective range of about 12 miles (19 km)"

 

Also it's Wiki. So you did not confirm anything at the same time. Don't get detailed military facts from Wiki. Especially not for aircraft and missiles.

The only way ED can satisfy people like you is to copy and paste Wiki performances so it aligns with your reality. Otherwise you will call them biased. A tell tale sign you have no clue so you just make up conspiracy's. ED missiles are in no way not perfect, but still comes closer to reality then your understanding of it. IF they would model it like you/wiki wants and use shortcuts for the missile physics to get to the end result you expect it would be more of a game. But they actually try to put in the real numbers as far as that is possible in the engine with the available but hard to come by information.

Also in MP people like me pull the most crazy manoeuvres all day to defeat the missiles. In real live i would probably be death before the missile even reached me.

 

I suggest you read all the other 100 posts FULLY about this topic. Then you might finally understand how a complicated issue this is.

Go in close, and when you think you are too close, go in closer.

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USN tactics have aircraft shooting sparrows (AIM-7F) at 15nm. Rmax2 at SL is 16nm, Rmax1 at 14nm ... I'd say 15nm at 20000' is comfy for this missile.

 

The 'effective range' of the relatively short-ranged AIM-7E though, is about 12nm.

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  • 4 weeks later...
This pretty much describes my struggle with Flankers in single player flying F-15C. I'm spamramming at good speed, cranking then end up hitting nothing or already beaming trying to survive. If I'm lucky I get splash, more probable is me getting hit, most BVR ends in WVR.

btw: No matter the altitude 40km is pretty close for BVR.

 

 

I'm still learning how to use the F15. Those damn flankers in single player are hard for me because they can always lock me up BVR and fire a missle before I can even get a lock. Even so I can't soot until I get closer. So I don't waste Aim120's on Flankkers anymore. I just make sure I'm going fast when I merge so I have enough energy to work with, I know I'm going to have to be dodging a missle or two. I use Aim 9's, I hit 6 twice so I get that huge bore site and then it seems pretty easy take them out. Just be mindful not to bleed off your energy, they'll try to get you do that right away. Scissors, Yo Yo, it all works. Don't just chase.

 

Now I want to go play this damn game.....

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In fact, the 40km is almost the maximum range for the missile in this especially situation. Try to replicate the situation and you will see.

 

I never fire a missle at 40 nm expecting to get a hit, I only fire them at that distance to stop them from beaming and to force a reaction out of them.

 

 

After you've played this for so many hours, you start to understand where everything is based on what AWACS says. So instead of heading directly at your target, you can fly indirectly towards them and fly around coming up from behind. They usually seem to be heading towards you unless they're flanking. If they're high enough you can see their contrails. I try to fly like that so I can try not wasting a missle by forcing a reaction because we're both heading directly into our radar cones.

 

This seems to work well with AI, PVP is instantly onto my ruse and I usually get my ass handed to me like a hat though.

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I do fire at closer ranges too but then have to retreat and lose the lock due to their heaters flying around.

 

When you learn how to dodge the missles it gets alot easier. Don't lock them up right away. Understand your radar on the left and the distances that those squares represent depending on how far that radar is looking out. I can get as close as 10 NM sometimes before they even lock on. The bottom right hand corner of your hud shows two important figures. Time for your aircraft to merge with the target, and under that is time for your missle to reach the target. These are in seconds. In the bottom left corner is a count down timer that shows up after you fire your Aim 120 missle, that's the countdown before the missle goes Pit Bull and uses it's own guidance system to reach the target, when that counter is at 0, you can unlock and evade or find another target knowing that your missle is still tracking your target on it's own.

 

After a little bit, you'll use all these bits of information to decide when the optimal time to fire your missle will be.

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Relax, no one is trying to paint anything. Stop the drama please. I just confirmed it's effective range at 12 miles

 

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/AIM-120_AMRAAM

 

 

That was an interesting read. Now I want them to add Aim120 C7 and AIM 120D missles to DCS. It was the Aim 7 that had an effective range of 12 miles wasn't it? AIM 120D apparently can go 50% further than the other AIM 120s, not sure how that would work in this game. I don't want this game to have people locking others up at 80 NM out and firing missles.

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Well that's how it works in Head to Head BVR:

-Flankers will try to make you go defensive ASAP because they know their missiles can't follow you if you dodge them well, but yours can

-As soon as you go defensive they'll try to lock you with the EOS and fire 27ETs if the situation's right (doing so when fighting in mountains isn't a great idea)

 

So what you got to do:

-Never go Head to Head unless under 30 nm, when you do you must crank your target and soft lock it (with TWS), when confortable (around 15 nm) you go head to head and fire, crank again after that until it goes pitbull

 

-If a flanker fires before you : notch (90° from missile, slight nose down so ground can help mask you) and after a while go back up so it can't follow you up

 

If you want your opponent to be defensive before you : Bypass launch range safety (not sure that's how it's called), fire an AIM-7 and start cranking (dont loose lock !). This will never reach but you'll most likely have an advantage and be able to close the gap for your fox 3 to be effective without being shot at.

 

Always remember : If a flanked fires a fox 1 he needs to keep the lock for it to be effective, if you can force him to be defensive he will loose the lock. Whereas if you fire a FOX-3 and loose the lock during pitbull phase you're fine you just have to fire close enough and keep it long enough

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Well that's how it works in Head to Head BVR:

-Flankers will try to make you go defensive ASAP because they know their missiles can't follow you if you dodge them well, but yours can

-As soon as you go defensive they'll try to lock you with the EOS and fire 27ETs if the situation's right (doing so when fighting in mountains isn't a great idea)

 

So what you got to do:

-Never go Head to Head unless under 30 nm, when you do you must crank your target and soft lock it (with TWS), when confortable (around 15 nm) you go head to head and fire, crank again after that until it goes pitbull

 

-If a flanker fires before you : notch (90° from missile, slight nose down so ground can help mask you) and after a while go back up so it can't follow you up

 

If you want your opponent to be defensive before you : Bypass launch range safety (not sure that's how it's called), fire an AIM-7 and start cranking (dont loose lock !). This will never reach but you'll most likely have an advantage and be able to close the gap for your fox 3 to be effective without being shot at.

 

Always remember : If a flanked fires a fox 1 he needs to keep the lock for it to be effective, if you can force him to be defensive he will loose the lock. Whereas if you fire a FOX-3 and loose the lock during pitbull phase you're fine you just have to fire close enough and keep it long enough

 

Nice, this makes sense, now I know why the missles are easy to dodge when I am able to get an Aim 9 fired off immediately after the missle warning alarm goes off. It forces the flanker to go defensive and he must be losing his lock on me.

 

I am getting pretty good at dodging missles now, but if there are two planes on me, it get really hard to dodge all the missles because I lose so much energy. I just realized I wasn't dropping my tanks first either. I'm sure that will make all the difference right there.

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Those damn flankers in single player are hard for me because they can always lock me up BVR and fire a missle before I can even get a lock.

That's very unusual. I can lock them from like 60nm - the moment they show up on the radar. They don't fire unless about 30nm.

Even so I can't soot until I get closer.
You can always release the missile. You just may have no "shoot" cue from the computer.

I use Aim 9's, I hit 6 twice so I get that huge bore site
It seems huge only when you know where the enemy is.

Scissors, Yo Yo, it all works. Don't just chase.
I do a lot better when I have SA. Most of the time after BVR fails to conclude the fight I have little idea of bandits location after merge. I end up flying circles, bleeding energy, desperatly looking around and using radar to find'em.

I never fire a missle at 40 nm expecting to get a hitI never fire a missle at 40 nm expecting to get a hit
We were talking about 40km not 40nm.

Don't lock them up right away.
When distance is less than 40nm I always bug them in TWS.

Now I want them to add Aim120 C7 and AIM 120D missles to DCS. It was the Aim 7 that had an effective range of 12 miles wasn't it? AIM 120D apparently can go 50% further than the other AIM 120s, not sure how that would work in this game. I don't want this game to have people locking others up at 80 NM out and firing missles.
There are no a/c currently in DCS capable of launching them so why adding 120D which is at testing phase.

This year F-14B is coming with its Phoenix. You want to forbid it on servers or what? It's a sim. If there's capable equipment you should be able to use it however you want. But can you even find the fighter 80nm away? You have to lock on something first.

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