Which module to start off?

I couldn't disagree with your FC3 statement more. I started there and learned a ton of stuff before moving onto the more complex aircraft. AA combat is far more difficult to learn and the radar, although simple, will give a very good starting point for anybody.

The F-86, although easy to fly is one of the hardest to learn how to dogfight in. Its a massive energy fight with that one to do it properly and effectively.

I guess we'll have to agree to disagree.

I firmly believe that a new pilot should learn to walk before he learns to run. One should learn how to fly worth a darn before being sent into combat. He should learn how to understand his machine before he learns how to shoot Amraams 30 miles away from target.

The early phases of the Air War over Vietnam proved one thing: the notion of dogfighting was thought to be an obsolete concept in a modern combat environment and BVR engagements were pretty much the biggest part of the training of the newer generation of pilots who hadn't gone through Korea or World War II. This proved to be one of the biggest mistakes the USAF has ever made, and pilots paid a heavy price for it.

Nowadays, there is a reason (and a very good one) as to why pilots start from trainers and change from old machines to newer ones throughout their training. Having fancy modern systems on an aircraft is useless if you don't understand why you have them in the first place. This is why it is essential to understand how systems work, how your aircraft works... something that FC3 completely glosses over.

Flaming Cliffs did not teach me how hydraulic systems worked, what an inverter or a battery is, how to operate engines without blowing up, what gauges to look for during flight, how to navigate with old instruments... DCS is one of the most complex study sims ever made: FC3 modules will teach you how to shoot missiles and how to do BVR engagements, with the occasional dogfight. That is all well and good if you are not interested in what a study sim brings to the table.

What new guys (including me) always say is: "why are there so many switches? I'll never be able to remember them!" Well the best way is not to memorize these switches and procedures: it's to understand why you are mashing these buttons and flipping these switches. In that regard, system management in FC3 is nonexistent.

The reason why I got to know so many things about the more complex aircraft like the A-10C is because I started from the ground up: learn WW2 planes, then switch to Korean-era jets, then to Vietnam era jets and then modern era jets. It is the most efficient, most practical way to learn about planes. You learn why systems were created, how they work, what they improved, and why certain design choices are done.

This is the difference between a guy that will fly 10 hours and get bored and a guy that will fly 500 and keep coming back for more. I got bored with the FC3 modules after 10 hours. I have more than 600 hours in all other DCS modules combined, and I enjoy them much, much more.

Your right, we definitely have to agree to disagree. This isn't Vietnam, its a game.

I like the idea of starting with the ww2 planes and working my way forward. I have however started with the su25t. Loving it so far. Took me quite a while to figure out how the HSI works (still not 100% sure), but it is fascinating stuff. The hard landing tutorial was also quite the challenge. Quite stressful to worry about glide slopes, speed, heading, hud mode, all at once!

Anyway, loving it!

Good stuff. The SU-25 is a lot of fun on SEAD missions.

Nice post, Chuck.

It's hard to put into words just how much more rewarding the complex modules are if you take time to learn them properly from the ground up. At first it will seem impossible, but then you will impress yourself. ;)

Can I just ask quickly off-topic, when you are in landing mode in the su25t, where exactly are the HSI and HUD pointing? I was thinking it would be the start of a good approach (and it may yet be) but I haven't really gotten a sense of where it's pointing. Normally I see the airport and think something is wrong, let me just line up as I see fit and go from there..

Edit: Also the return mode, where is that taking me exactly?

Editedit: actually, nevermind. These are probably just stupid questions that goes to show I must have missed something in the first tutorials. I will just refly them a few times and youtube a bit :)

Can I just ask quickly off-topic, when you are in landing mode in the su25t, where exactly are the HSI and HUD pointing? I was thinking it would be the start of a good approach (and it may yet be) but I haven't really gotten a sense of where it's pointing. Normally I see the airport and think something is wrong, let me just line up as I see fit and go from there..

 

Edit: Also the return mode, where is that taking me exactly?

Editedit: actually, nevermind. These are probably just stupid questions that goes to show I must have missed something in the first tutorials. I will just refly them a few times and youtube a bit :)

The only stupid question is the one you should have asked and didn't.

Feel free to ask more "stupid" questions: I will never hold curiosity and a desire to learn against anyone.

Regarding a good start into DCS: Get the Su-25 for DCS. Its one of te best mande FC3 aircraft, has a good PFM with critical limits that are represented very good, is even simpler than the SU-25T and is much easier to handle because it has less drag and less weight. The SU-25 is my premier Trainer Aircraft and I like it most out of all the FC3 Aircraft.

While the FC models aren't bad, they are a bit "simple" compared to the full modules like Blackshark 2 and A10 C. The full models are very detailed, featuring "sims-within-the-sim" when it comes down to systems like navigation, datalinks etc.

You can have fun with the FC simplified models - they still feature quite realistic operation (e.g. Radar management - no simplified blips on screen to point at - you need to figure out a contact for yourself).

For some extra bucks you'll get the opportunity to learn a lot about realistic stuff, which is some selling point when I consider buying: E.g. I knew nothing about orbitals and navigating between celestial bodies, before I bought Kerbal Space Program. In DCS I might consider activating the Russian cockpit to improve my Kyrillic when I press that red switch.

FC3 modules won't teach you anything if you want to learn how to fly properly.

 

The F-86 is one of the easiest modules to learn. I would pick that if you like jets. If you prefer prop planes, the P-51D (or the TF-51D, which is free) is a good pick.

Wow...couldn't disagree more.

Systems management... yes. Flying... no. When I say flying I mean airframe management. With a caveat that in FC3 you only get this when you get a module with greater than SFM (F-15, a-10a, etc.. for example).

Wow...couldn't disagree more.

 

Systems management... yes. Flying... no. When I say flying I mean airframe management. With a caveat that in FC3 you only get this when you get a module with greater than SFM (F-15, a-10a, etc.. for example).

Work load management is just as important as flying. If you know how to manage your systems in the most efficient way (by knowing when, where and how to do it), you can actually concentrate on flying rather than operating your aircraft. This is very apparent in modules like the Ka-50 and the A-10C.

Fly the F-16 in BMS and the F-15 in DCS FC3: completely different experiences. I think people could be surprised to see how much stuff there is to do in the F-18 once it is released.

This is what I mean by "FC3 won't teach you how to fly properly".

So, I've completed all the training stuff for the Su-25T and thought I'd start the campaign... jesus... Flew a couple of waypoints and then the RWR started screaming and wingmen were spamming - I was like a deer in the headlights; had no idea what to do and got shot down soon thereafter.

Is there a trick to know what weapons are TV, IR or radar guided? There seem to be a whole lot of weapons and remembering fifty names along the lines of SPH-KGB529-3.2 300mm Mark 2 Shikram Bulgur seems impossible!

So, I've completed all the training stuff for the Su-25T and thought I'd start the campaign... jesus... Flew a couple of waypoints and then the RWR started screaming and wingmen were spamming - I was like a deer in the headlights; had no idea what to do and got shot down soon thereafter.

 

Is there a trick to know what weapons are TV, IR or radar guided? There seem to be a whole lot of weapons and remembering fifty names along the lines of SPH-KGB529-3.2 300mm Mark 2 Shikram Bulgur seems impossible!

A good way to remember russian missiles is the letter at the end of their name , T is TV guided , L is laser guided, in the su 25 all your air to air weapons are IR guided and nothing is radar guided.

Here : http://forums.eagle.ru/showpost.php?p=1545277&postcount=42

A good way to remember russian missiles is the letter at the end of their name , T is TV guided , L is laser guided, in the su 25 all your air to air weapons are IR guided and nothing is radar guided.

 

Here : http://forums.eagle.ru/showpost.php?p=1545277&postcount=42

Great link, thanks! I'm slowly starting to remember what is what.

I think I've flown the first campaign mission around 20 times now and have yet to make any progress.

How I am supposed to fly close enough to identify AA stuff, lock and fire without getting shot down myself is a GREAT mystery to me. I've tried running with the phantasmagoria pod and moving waypoints far out to sea to give me time to wipe out AA before I go in for tank kills, but I always get shot down. Quite the mission to throw at beginners as the very first mission they'll fly! :p

Edit: 24th time lucky I guess! F***ing finally made it through. Not sure what I did differently than the other times, though.

Editedit: I realize this is getting way offtopic, so I'll refrain from posting more of this here

Meandering thread best thread. In any case, in general you should study the mission planner map to get an overall feel for where stuff is. Exact locations of various units aren't important since many will move, but knowing where the lines are is important. The key to survival is to stay over friendly territory, don't over fly your target.

On the first campaign mission in the Georgian Oil War campaign, swing 10km+ out to sea and line up on the valley coming in for your attack. Locate the front and search for enemy units defending. To increase the search and attack time you have, slow down. I often putt about with my flaps down just below the clouds. Once a target is spotted, fire from as far away as you can and then turn back to sea as soon as the missile hits. Your goal should be to snipe them from friendly airspace, ideally never actually crossing into enemy territory where manpads and AAA might get you. On that particular mission, you can completely ignore the SAMs so long as you stay over friendly troops. The only radar guided SAM is at the enemy airfield, well out of range of the frontlines.

On the recon missions, you can cheat a bit and simply fly above all the short ranged SAMs and AAA. This is because you only have to reach the target area, it doesn't account for cloud cover and such things. That leaves only the longer ranged radar SAMs to contend with, which are easily dealt with via KH-25MPU's and the ELINT pod.

Thanks for the tips, much appreciated!

Just thought I'd add another opinion on the FC3 planes. 'Cause there aren't enough of those in this thread yet. ;)

While I agree wholeheartedly that the A-10C, KA-50, etc. are extremely rewarding to fly, I don't think that flying something without that level of detail in the systems modeling is detrimental to your piloting skills or useless in any way.

A handful of people become extremely hostile about the FC3 planes. They seem to think that a player who wants to have fun with their game immediately, rather than spend several hours up to their ears in training materials, ought to be punished for their impatience. That materials that allow this kind of behavior should be ridiculed and dismissed. The reason real pilots work their way up from hours of classroom instruction, through basic aircraft, etc. is because in reality you can't afford to wreck 40 or 50 multimillion dollar jets while you're learning, and you can't hit "fly again" if you get shot in the face through your cockpit glass.

Personally, I think that the FC3 planes are a ton of fun, and will teach you basic flight maneuvering just as well as any of the more complex modules, with the added benefit that you can glance at the controls for a minute, click "instant action" and get into a dogfight you have a chance at succeeding in. This doesn't mean the FC3 planes "automatically handle navigation for you" (honestly, where did you even get that from?) but rather that you flip one switch for all your electrical systems instead of turning on your battery, inverter, ground power, apu, engine, ac generator, etc. etc. etc. etc. clicky clicky clicky.

Your flight systems, gauges, RADAR, etc. will still be modeled in detail, but you can get in the pit and have a little fun without overwhelming yourself with new concepts, if you're new to flight sims. I don't think this makes you a bad person or a bad pilot, and learning proper BVR (beyond visual range) tactics isn't going to do you any harm if a hostile in a fast mover comes knocking when you're in the A-10. Learning how to make missiles miss you is a pretty valuable skill.

While the MiG-29s are still very basic in both appearance and handling, and the Su-33 has a simplified flight model (this is counterbalanced by the fact you can do carrier ops!) the F-15, A-10A, Su-27, and original Su-25 have advanced or professional flight models and are incredible fun for me, personally, just as much as the A-10C, P-51D, MiG-21, KA-50 and other full fidelity modules. The Su-27 in particular is very challenging to learn, but once you do you can do some pretty incredible things in it.

And whenever you get around to doing some Eagling, be sure to check out my shameless plug!

Welcome to the DCS community, haters gon' hate, brush them off and have fun!

Yep, go outta town and bang.....ED has a quick sale....75% off all modules....Tacky...if I were you I would have purchase them all. But damn the sale is over.....I would have jumped on the two or three modules I do not have.

Yep, go outta town and bang.....ED has a quick sale....75% off all modules....Tacky...if I were you I would have purchase them all. But damn the sale is over.....I would have jumped on the two or three modules I do not have.

I got all of them apart from the trainers, helo and Combined Arms. :)

I must have missed the 75%, though.

Just thought I'd add another opinion on the FC3 planes. 'Cause there aren't enough of those in this thread yet. ;)

 

...

 

Your flight systems, gauges, RADAR, etc. will still be modeled in detail, but you can get in the pit and have a little fun without overwhelming yourself with new concepts, if you're new to flight sims. I don't think this makes you a bad person or a bad pilot, and learning proper BVR (beyond visual range) tactics isn't going to do you any harm if a hostile in a fast mover comes knocking when you're in the A-10. Learning how to make missiles miss you is a pretty valuable skill.

I only have a little bit of experience with FC3, and mostly the F-15C, but the radar is not "modeled in detail." I think it's actually easier to operate the radar in a high fidelity sim, e.g. Falcon BMS, than it is in FC3 because FC3 holds one hand behind your back.

That said, I agree with your overall opinion about FC3. It is still a more complicated flight sim than most others from the 00s and 90s and it is fun.

I think, to someone who has not spent a lot of time in flight simulators, that adjusting your pulse frequency, scan range, scan zone size, and azimuth can be considered "modeled in detail."

None of the new players I've ever taken up on their first flight have said to me "god da#$$*(# this RADAR is too simple!" Did I say modeled to 100% fidelity to match the real AN/APG-63? Now you're just trying to nitpick and fight for the sake of fighting. God bless the internet. :)

I think, to someone who has not spent a lot of time in flight simulators, that adjusting your pulse frequency, scan range, scan zone size, and azimuth can be considered "modeled in detail."

None of the new players I've ever taken up on their first flight have said to me "god da#$$*(# this RADAR is too simple!" Did I say modeled to 100% fidelity to match the real AN/APG-63? Now you're just trying to nitpick and fight for the sake of fighting. God bless the internet. :)

You are quickly becoming my favorite poster on this forum.

I think, to someone who has not spent a lot of time in flight simulators, that adjusting your pulse frequency, scan range, scan zone size, and azimuth can be considered "modeled in detail."

None of the new players I've ever taken up on their first flight have said to me "god da#$$*(# this RADAR is too simple!" Did I say modeled to 100% fidelity to match the real AN/APG-63? Now you're just trying to nitpick and fight for the sake of fighting. God bless the internet. :)

Sorry if I sound that way. It was not my intention.

You can read here if you're curious to know what I'm getting at: http://forums.eagle.ru/showthread.php?t=142823&page=2

Eh, that was a little hostile sorry bud.

I just get tired of all the FC3 bashing. Let's get back on topic, which is welcoming a new player to the sim community.

Hugs and koombayahs all around.

EDIT: I read the thread. Sounds like a case of PICNIC.

Problem In Chair, Not In Computer

Maverick's video demonstrates how to properly use TWS mode in the F-15C.

Not being able to manually cycle between targets you have bugged is a pain, but I don't think it's the end of the world. Getting spoiled on that Falcon ;)

FC3