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F15 damage model possible issues


microvax

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Currently all missiles seem to underperform, the F15 is the most obvious example, or it might be straight away the F15 thats borked, im not sure, thats why I am posting it to multiple sections to rase awareness, after the old threads have gone officially unnoticed for more then a month.

 

I did include a SP track and tacview showing the issue twice in a row of 2 f15s getting hit by a motor still burning 530d meanwhile they take only cosmetic damage.

 

The same thing happens in MP, the success rate of 530d vs f15 is atm worse then 20%.

 

 

As said this is a general issue, all planes tend to absord massive amounts of damage sometimes but 530d/magic vs eagle seems to be consistent.

 

 

Unfortunately the forum software doesnt let me use the same file again, so here are the links to the post in the razbam section and the attachemens:

https://forums.eagle.ru/showthread.php?t=204446

https://forums.eagle.ru/attachment.php?attachmentid=180820&d=1521043484

https://forums.eagle.ru/attachment.php?attachmentid=180818&d=1521043423

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*unexpected flight behaviour* Oh shiii*** ! What ? Why ? What is happening ?

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Known issue. It's been this way since the 2.5 beta roll out.

 

It started before 2.5, last or second last 1.5.8 patch broke it afaik.

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*unexpected flight behaviour* Oh shiii*** ! What ? Why ? What is happening ?

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How many times do you want to post this topic?

 

We get it. The damage model is an issue and a lot of weapons/planes are affected.

 

I don't see the issue with bringing awareness to an issue effecting a particular platform against a particular weapon with constructive documentation as an issue. If the post is an annoyance to your eyes because you don't want to read about damage model issues you don't need to respond.

 

Back to the topic; thanks Microvax for taking the time to conduct tests on these issues. I hope it's addressed.

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I don't see the issue with bringing awareness to an issue effecting a particular platform against a particular weapon with constructive documentation as an issue. If the post is an annoyance to your eyes because you don't want to read about damage model issues you don't need to respond.

 

The main reason it was addressed like that is because there are several threads throughout the forums that talk about this same thing. Some folks would rather take the easy route and generate a new post than spend a little time looking around to see if it has been discussed. There are so many wasted posts around because of this and some folks just get frustrated at that. The forum moderators try to catch some of these and merge them but it happens so often it is difficult for them to keep up.

Steve (Slick)

 

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The main reason it was addressed like that is because there are several threads throughout the forums that talk about this same thing. Some folks would rather take the easy route and generate a new post than spend a little time looking around to see if it has been discussed. There are so many wasted posts around because of this and some folks just get frustrated at that. The forum moderators try to catch some of these and merge them but it happens so often it is difficult for them to keep up.

 

 

Im not sure if razbam did change anything about the missiles since the issue appeared before 2.5 release. I dont think so, but I cant be sure because the issue with the 530d deviates statisically relevant from the issues with the other missiles.

 

Im not sure if the eagle dm has some kink which makes it cause that statistic difference.

 

Im not sure if nothing of both is the case and its just the general issue.

 

3 lines of action, 3 possible sources of issue I have been able to make out, too much frustration over this issue -> 3 posts.

 

I know there is threads about it, but none got any officiall feedback and none did actually put trackfiles in.

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*unexpected flight behaviour* Oh shiii*** ! What ? Why ? What is happening ?

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  • 2 weeks later...

I've had issues with Magics against the F15 and A10A. I have a video of the former, if desirable. Was not aware this was a widespread issue. I suspected something more nefarious after it happening the umpteenth time on a particular server with a particular player. Glad it's more likely a bug than anything else.

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Well, will they get some armor loss in future?

Probably. But we only see it as such by comparing to the previous damage model (v1.5). I remember that being hit by missile sometimes allowed you to cripple to the airbase. Most of times it was sudden blow up. But it never ever endend without any damage like it happens now or that you hit the aircraft with no visible effect on it.

Where is the sweet spot of such damage probability that is close to reality? Do you have any data on it, GGTharos? Some statistics maybe?

Is it physics calculations gone wrong or rather some probability values?

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I don't know what changed - I have my speculations but they're all just 'maybe this, maybe that'.

 

Of course, it seems that recently RL F-15's have proven the eagle's tankiness ;)

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  • 2 weeks later...

Yea, F15 got 2xR60M in the butt but still goes for merged dogfight and max speed rtb. I mean, who's playing with that stuff on ED side anyway? Where is the unified damage model or physics modeling anyway. C'mon guys, fix that. Its going out of control. All this work for what? To have eye-candy and no physics - that's no sim. Were waiting for decent damage model for decades. How long we have to wait for proper one? -1 to ED for damage modeling.

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Dear Tharos, tell me what does this means :"Of course, it seems that recently RL F-15's have proven the eagle's tankiness"? What happened exactly? Shrapnels from rocket warheads are 100% rusted out, or explosive got wet soaked or new improved F15 indeed does have new schrapnel repelling nano-coating? Maybe F15C doesn't have FLCS strategically mounted between exhaust nozzles like old Su27 does so its immune to missile damage and doesn't pitch up that violently on any damage at all? Does that means that Aim9X is also useless now against new soviet flares like one on Su22? Do we have to expect trend following or stick to development timestamp?

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Do I really have to put explicit /s for you? :D

 

Dear Tharos, tell me what does this means :"Of course, it seems that recently RL F-15's have proven the eagle's tankiness"? What happened exactly? Shrapnels from rocket warheads are 100% rusted out, or explosive got wet soaked or new improved F15 indeed does have new schrapnel repelling nano-coating? Maybe F15C doesn't have FLCS strategically mounted between exhaust nozzles like old Su27 does so its immune to missile damage and doesn't pitch up that violently on any damage at all? Does that means that Aim9X is also useless now against new soviet flares like one on Su22? Do we have to expect trend following or stick to development timestamp?

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Reminder: SAM = Speed Bump :D

I used to play flight sims like you, but then I took a slammer to the knee - Yoda

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Maybe I can help:

 

https://www.therussophile.org/houthis-hit-saudi-f-15-with-ground-to-air-

missile-over-yemens-saada-province-video-3.html/

 

https://southfront.org/houthis-released-video-showing-moment-when-saudi-led-coalition-f-15-was-hit-by-surfate-to-air-missile/

 

No story like: F15 landed safely damaged.. bla bla.. spraying fumes.. kicking afterburners to land safely and so on..

Q: So is Eagle that hard as GGT claims?

 

https://www.popularmechanics.com/military/aviation/news/a27094/su-22-dodge-aim-9x-sidewinder/

 

and

 

https://combataircraft.keypublishing.com/2017/06/23/how-did-a-30-year-old-su-22-defeat-a-modern-aim-9x/

 

Q: Does this RL story puts shades on effectiveness of all US IR missile PK ratio before X variant?

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Unless thoroughly investigated we don't know how far the missile gone off, if there was malfunction or how good countermeasures behaved.

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at this point we have damn good evidence that Aim9 is under powered and prone to soviet flares. So if Aim9 cant knock down F15 how come then it can knock down anything larger from first shot? Titanium is titanium. Do we have A-A warhead comparison somewhere?

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In fact you don't. It's one anectode vs. the F-15s taking AAMs in multiple incidents and living to tell the tale :D

 

And you know it.

 

Despite that, the fact that you're so bothered is kinda funny. Seriously, you're way too sensitive about this. Calm down, relax, take a deep breath and think about what you're doing a bit. :D

 

As for warhead comparisons, there are some actual warhead studies and tests out there. I don't know if you'll find an AIM-9 study for the warhead, but I think there's an AIM-7 one floating around in case you're really interested in warheads.

 

If, on the other hand, this is just some sort of things culminating from you being bothered about this whole F-15 thing ... LOL? :D

 

PS: That friendly fire incident isn't the only one, there was an F-15J on F-15J training incident, and that F-15J was shot down.

 

at this point we have damn good evidence that Aim9 is under powered and prone to soviet flares.

Edited by GGTharos

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Reminder: SAM = Speed Bump :D

I used to play flight sims like you, but then I took a slammer to the knee - Yoda

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Tharos, your'e a partybreaker :) Not bothered at all, just contrary.

 

Look, we all know that F15 is OP-ed on damage model, cos we've seen lot of it on MP arena lately. Egg. I like flying Mig21 cos it's hard to fly, fast and it can outurn F15 just enough to fire R60s in it's warm spots and then... comes ED with it's damage logic to help all F15 pilots become heroes of the day.

Why don't ED turns that "F15 help mode" off in MP egg. Maybe it's good for newbies to give them a push for fighter jets but at the end of a day we all know its not real. Big missiles rips planes apart, not small as they can only damage plane's systems which then brings the whole plane down under certain conditions. PK ratio depends on many components but odds can not be that high for F15 compared to Su27 as other in its size class. I don't remember last time setting up random failures on ME and that is spot where small missiles hit - random system failures. Bigger missile - more random system failure..etc

 

Also, Aim9 warhead is also way too much OPed as is range too.. yeah, flies almost like 27T, and gravity doesn't work for aim9 too as it doesn't drop into high AoA drag on non-powered ballistic flight phase if tracking powered plane out of range. F15 players know it but are silent as now they can spamram aim9s too. Damn, ED tripple OPed F15. And we've seen RL Aim9 going stupid since Vietnam up to Syria - a lot. So why doesn't ED follows? Besides, there's realism level settings in game too ;)

 

It's up to ED at the end but you Tharos can tell them that Birdstike isn't happy about their high damage resistance for F15 in reference to R60M and rest of arsenal.. I don't want to fire 3xR60 to bring F15 down. That is just too much..

 

PS: Why do they take live ammo at all? What, wing commander likes to play poker with pilots so the one who looses takes live aim9 on? :D Why don't pilots put some duck tape on that seeker before training mission takeoff. It's taxpayers money anyway.. :music_whistling:

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Tharos, your'e a partybreaker :) Not bothered at all, just contrary.

 

LOL :D

 

Look, we all know that F15 is OP-ed on damage model, cos we've seen lot of it on MP arena lately.

 

I don't think it's the F-15's damage model, I think it's an overall thing that they did and the 15 is just the most tanky aircraft for some reason. My understanding is that the whole DM is being revamped.

 

 

 

Also, Aim9 warhead is also way too much OPed as is range too..

 

It's actually set up according to real speed-time profile graph ... in fact the 9 is one of the most correct missiles in-game range-wise.

 

And we've seen RL Aim9 going stupid since Vietnam up to Syria - a lot.

 

In fact you haven't, and you know this :D

 

PS: Why do they take live ammo at all? What, wing commander likes to play poker with pilots so the one who looses takes live aim9 on? :D Why don't pilots put some duck tape on that seeker before training mission takeoff. It's taxpayers money anyway.. :music_whistling:

 

I think in this case they get some of their practice in on patrols, which in that environment are very long. The F-15 has a Master Arm switch with:

 

ON-OFF-SIM positions.

 

Someone made a mistake in both of those incidents and flipped the switch ton ON instead of SIM.

[sIGPIC][/sIGPIC]

Reminder: SAM = Speed Bump :D

I used to play flight sims like you, but then I took a slammer to the knee - Yoda

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