What about Russian jets?

There is only Mig-21 and Mig-15 and nothing else.

I would like to play Mig-29, Su-30 ... and especially Mig-31

FC3 modules are really basic...

Anyone else wish for more premium Russian jets here? :cry::cry:

Everyone wants more russian/soviet fighters/equipment. Maybe ask papa Putin if he makes the sekrit dokuments public. Then maybe ED or someone else will do one.

Yeah, I'd love them, especially the MiG-29K, MiG-29M, Su-27SM3, Su-30SM1, Su-34, and Su-35S, but unfortunately a lot of information necessary to make a full-fidelity, PFM, clickable-cockpit module of any of the ones I've listed is classified. ED was going to make a full Su-27SM, but it had to be turned into the FC3 Su-27S, because of the new MOD laws.

I wish we could get an official statement on the issue of Russian/Soviet aircraft. At least so we know and can manage our expectations. If they came out and said "listen guys we can not publish any RU birds because of this this and this" it would bring closure to the subject and we can forget about it. So far they have been very vague about the subject. I remember When Wags did a video interview when they were promoting the Normandy map the question came up and he did not want to get into it. I'm not even sure the whole "no in service RU birds can be simulated"is a rumour or not.

I wish we could get an official statement on the issue of Russian/Soviet aircraft. At least so we know and can manage our expectations. If they came out and said "listen guys we can not publish any RU birds because of this this and this" it would bring closure to the subject and we can forget about it. So far they have been very vague about the subject. I remember When Wags did a video interview when they were promoting the Normandy map the question came up and he did not want to get into it. I'm not even sure the whole "no in service RU birds can be simulated"is a rumour or not.

For example, why not Mig-29?

American Airforce had Mig-29's, there is nothing secret about them.

Here we go again....

I think there still should be some popular possibilities regarding PFM/ASM VVS aircraft like full fidelity Su-25A (Flight model is there, cockpit is there, some systems too) then Mig-23ML, Su-17, Mig-29A. I think that Grach would require the least work from ED and could be quite popular as well as economically feasible.

Yeah, I'd love them, especially the MiG-29K, MiG-29M, Su-27SM3, Su-30SM1, Su-34, and Su-35S, but unfortunately a lot of information necessary to make a full-fidelity, PFM, clickable-cockpit module of any of the ones I've listed is classified. ED was going to make a full Su-27SM, but it had to be turned into the FC3 Su-27S, because of the new MOD laws.

I was sure I'd read something that basically confirms what FM states above, i.e. that ED would like to do it, but the data is just not being made available. Not really any different from the current circumstance on the Apache and the Eurofighter.

We're just going to have to work with 4th generation aircraft as our newest/where available and even some of that is going to be heavily restricted.

For all that, I do wonder if we could have a Typhoon as an FC3 aircraft. Would be an interesting alternative to the F15/Su27.

Chizh mentioned on the russian side that he didnt believe there was a viable market for russian aircraft. Aside from the probable classification issues.

Edit: https://forums.eagle.ru/showthread.php?t=103691&page=20

Page 20 and onwards. Use chrome translator.

Yeap, that's from ED's side though.

I doubt they'd stop a 3rd Party doing a Redfor jet.

After all, there's clearly some market viability, as we've got the Mig-19 in the pipe + BST are working on the Mi-24.

I personally would very much like a fully modelled Mig-29 or Su-27, or a Mig-23/27.

I wish we could get an official statement on the issue of Russian/Soviet aircraft. At least so we know and can manage our expectations. If they came out and said "listen guys we can not publish any RU birds because of this this and this" it would bring closure to the subject and we can forget about it. So far they have been very vague about the subject. I remember When Wags did a video interview when they were promoting the Normandy map the question came up and he did not want to get into it. I'm not even sure the whole "no in service RU birds can be simulated"is a rumour or not.

I agree with this. An official statement from ED would be great.

As far as "classification" goes, there are many MiG-29A's in Western museums, in the hands of private "warbird" owners as well as in NATO airforces. So Russia can hardly claim that there is anything still classified about the MiG-29A. More modern MiG-29 variants are another story, let alone aircraft like the MiG-31. But I would be very happy to get a full fidelity MiG-29A. Same story for the MiG-23 or Su-17 / Su-22 or the Su-25. And as has been mentioned above, the Mi-24 is already under development, which can (IMHO) be considered in equivalent position as the MiG-29A

So, if classified information cannot be the reason to not develop e.g. a MiG-29A, then what is?

What's wrong with a close approximation of some of these...Imho I think that is all we really get in any simulator. Without the absolutely perfect by the book model of some weapon systems, good replicates can be programmed. The purists can chose to not use them.

You can label them anything you want....PFM,AFM,SFM,DHM,XXM,ABCM,JFKM to satisfy those who want but would not be able to tell the difference between the real item vs. the simulated version.

( Reading the repair manual or MFG'S published specifications and finding that a system is not modeled to exactly 10000000% of the real thing, which actually exceeds the product drop-out error prediction, that type personality again can chose not to involve themselves in that type of module...even though they would be hard pressed to find the difference between real and simulated. )

Yes, I realize that DCS is suppose to program there modules to as close to real as possible. And that is why some purchase these. But I believe one would find a close appropriation to be acceptable.

Let me be clear so some wont let their preconceived affinities supersede what I am saying.

I do not mean," aircraft to fly at mach 12, or missiles that never miss, or invisible structures, or other outrageous performance characteristics. ( At this point I would like to point out that flying a F-15 against a Mig 15 is hardly a realistic scenario.)

But close to the actual properties with out bringing the layers of bureaucratic intervention to halt creation of any components deemed inappropriate or a conflict of interest by said country or organization of legitimate legal concern.

Then we could have many of the modules that are mentioned ad nauseum and argued continuously.

I have witnessed many modules in other simulators that are available and programmed by the same 3rd parties as are here in DCS. Which indicated to me that they have circumvented any opposition to its creation.

And again I know that these are not "StudySim" type. And I have read that ED will not program non-study type aircraft or anything that resembles a FC-3 project.

It's not that they can't, its that they won't. And their reason is none of our concern.

laz

Clearly the folks at Eagle Dynamics are smart individuals so I don't mean to insult anyone's intelligence by this, but I have a few questions that if they haven't been thought of already, maybe the developers can ponder over or even seek some legal council on this if need be. I'm kind of a solution oriented person and if this might bring us something out of it, I want to bring it up.

 

If modern day Russian modules can't be made due to Russian MOD laws, what about Russian originating aircraft either built by companies outside of Russia, only operated by countries outside of Russia or simply outdated not in service models?

 

Is a Su-30MKI built by Hindustan Aeronautics in India and only operated by India a Russian secret or even considered a Russian aircraft?

 

What about Malaysian or Algerian versions of Flankers only operated by those countries? Does a Flanker built for China fall under the law (not talking about indigenous versions)?

 

What about the modernized Ukrainian Su-27's? I don't know anything about the equipment in them, but I'm going to assume that they are using different equipment than in the Russian ones.

 

Does a Shenyang J-11 using Chinese technology fall under Russian law? I'm sure throwing some Russian camouflage schemes and a Russian cockpit in a module featuring it would satisfy everyone.

 

Does an old Flanker operated in say, Kazakhstan, for example, fall under the law?

What makes you think that India, China or any other nation would be be more inclined to share detailed information on the military aircraft they operate? :) .

Last but not least, are there models not in service anymore because they're outdated than can be made?

Possibly, but not necessarily - its a common misconception that aircraft types which are old/ outdated/no longer in service automatically become declassified.

Chizh mentioned on the russian side that he didnt believe there was a viable market for russian aircraft. Aside from the probable classification issues.

 

Edit: https://forums.eagle.ru/showthread.php?t=103691&page=20

 

Page 20 and onwards. Use chrome translator.

Sounds like Chizh is applying his own preferences to the market :D .

I agree with this. An official statement from ED would be great.

 

As far as "classification" goes, there are many MiG-29A's in Western museums, in the hands of private "warbird" owners as well as in NATO airforces. So Russia can hardly claim that there is anything still classified about the MiG-29A. More modern MiG-29 variants are another story, let alone aircraft like the MiG-31. But I would be very happy to get a full fidelity MiG-29A. Same story for the MiG-23 or Su-17 / Su-22 or the Su-25. And as has been mentioned above, the Mi-24 is already under development, which can (IMHO) be considered in equivalent position as the MiG-29A

 

So, if classified information cannot be the reason to not develop e.g. a MiG-29A, then what is?

exactly Mig29A or similar variant like Exported German Variant Mig29G are not unfeasible from my point of view. These aircraft have been operated outside of USSSR, by former Warpact nations turned Nato allies, Evaluated by USA, and some are Found nowadays in Museums or Warbird owners.

It really doesn't seem to me either that "muh Classified Plane" excuse would apply to such Models.

There is public sourced documentation available on the internet that one could easily find

http://www.avialogs.com/index.php/aircraft/ussr/mikoyangurevitch/mig-29/gaf-t-o-1f-mig29-1-flight-manual-mig-29.html

http://www.avialogs.com/index.php/en/aircraft/ussr/mikoyangurevitch/mig-29/5384todo.html

. IF ED isn't interested because Western aircraft sell better, then maybe a 3rd party would make em?

Sounds like Chizh is applying his own preferences to the market :D .

seems like he is.

Yeah, the MiG-29A/G, as well as the Su-25A, ought to be declassified enough.

I agree that at least a MiG-29A/G should not be a problem.

I think classification/documentation is less of a problem than rights/licenses. Beeing allowed to recreate an aircraft at study sim level is more of a problem. Even the MiG-29 in use by other countries is still a product of Mikoyan.

You're right, I have no idea. They might be more inclined and they might not. All I know is the United States didn't seem to mind with the A-10C and F/A-18C, so I don't think it's "one size fits all".

No but thats the thing - the "one size fits all" might not even apply universally for the same country, but depend on the particular aircraft for which the documentation is requested, the company that produces it and its policies for providing information and under what circumstances.

We have Mig-23's, Mig-29's and Su-27's in my country that are privately owned by civilians. Nothing stopping somebody from modelling them if they got permission from the owners. Just saying.

I agree that there should be possibilities for the aircraft you mention, but more due to the publically available information.

Privately owned combat aircraft are "de-militarized" - i.e. combat- and combat related systems removed. Moreover, in order to be allowed to fly them they must meet FAA regulations, which often means that also some of the original non-combat items such as radio, navigation equipment and even some basic flight instruments have been replaced. But of course you could still get a lot of valuable information about how the aircraft flies as well as many of the things that make it fly(FCS, engines, fuel-, electric- and hydraulic/pneumatic systems etc).

However, aside from purchasing them, flying and maintaining such aircraft is insanely expensive and I suspect that if you could get such an agreement with a private owner, it would come at a price :)

Perhaps because ED is based in Russia and the government has forbidden the creation of recent aircrafts...

There many more ex Soviet user of MIG-23 and MIG-29 there not lay under Russian Secret..

But seem there is no Russian Jet in Future after there already announced next F Series Fighter...

MIG 21 sell's not that bad when I look around, can not understand this Statement...

Perhaps because ED is based in Russia and the government has forbidden the creation of recent aircrafts...

Mig29A/G is not very recent.

Mig29A/G is not very recent.

Right, but more recent versions of the same aircraft are used by Russian aviation, and maybe an excessive paranoia or disinformation about flight simulation, hinder any chance.

i think it's a commercial thing.