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Old 09-09-2016, 08:13 PM   #11
Bushmanni
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While I impatiently wait for 2.5, Hornet etc. I'm still worried that I'm not going to enjoy them to their full potential as scripting engine and other gameplay affecting bugs are still in the game ruining the fun. Nice graphics and other "chrome" is important for luring in new people but if the gameplay is shallow and self repeating (ie. AI and missions) or even bugged you will quickly get bored or frustrated. Not fixing gameplay killing bugs for over a year because something is under development isn't explanation as something is always being developed.

Having bugs in DCS due to new developments is understandable but having it broken most of the time isn't. What's the point of developing new stuff if it's going to work only for a short time anyway if at all. CA is one of the biggest blunders of ED so far. You can't use it in single player as AI will shoot you through trees but in MP it will cause server crashes and massive lag making it mostly unplayable in any form. Waste of development resources and selling empty promises if I may say. Screwing up mission designers is bad move for everyone as people who essentially work for free to make DCS more appealing get their hard work destroyed because of some new feature who knows when it's coming leaving everyone wondering what to make of the situation.
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Old 09-09-2016, 08:35 PM   #12
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Having bugs in DCS due to new developments is understandable but having it broken most of the time isn't. What's the point of developing new stuff if it's going to work only for a short time anyway if at all. CA is one of the biggest blunders of ED so far. You can't use it in single player as AI will shoot you through trees but in MP it will cause server crashes and massive lag making it mostly unplayable in any form. Waste of development resources and selling empty promises if I may say. Screwing up mission designers is bad move for everyone as people who essentially work for free to make DCS more appealing get their hard work destroyed because of some new feature who knows when it's coming leaving everyone wondering what to make of the situation.
Wow, not sure where to really start with this one... Your points on CA seem a little harsh, we have been told that they are working on the issue of AI and LOS. Not to mention we are getting tree collisions with the new maps. For MP, it was also stated that netcode would be completely re-written... probably that would help dont you think? Calling CA a blunder is confusing to me, it wasnt meant to be a tank Sim, but a tool to make missions more interesting and add another level to them. Anything expanded from there is a bonus. The CA product hasnt made any promises it hasnt kept, i think people are just expecting more out of it than they should have.

As far as claiming missions are being screwed up, like its being done on purpose or without care of it happing is also a little off. As I stated, priorities are were they are right now because you need a solid core. Sure they could stop everything and work on other smaller bugs, and they could all come back again when they go back to working on the core again... you want to hang your curtains up before the walls are in place...
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Old 09-09-2016, 09:52 PM   #13
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While I impatiently wait for 2.5, Hornet etc. I'm still worried that I'm not going to enjoy them to their full potential as scripting engine and other game play affecting bugs are still in the game ruining the fun.
I can totally relate to that. I've said to myself, I'm not getting any new air frames until I know I can enjoy them. Maybe I have a lot in hindsight and it's just around a corner but I feel real need that ED rolls out a stable platform as said in this discussion.

I'm saying that from flying experience but also as mission maker that gets Heebie-jeebies when I think of Friday and new update. It's just tears me apart when I find out that event that I have scheduled with the squadron and mission we were supposed to fly is in some part "broken" and I have to fix it in rush. This makes running our communities hard... and I think we're doing proxy work for ED by maintaining communities. New members often start off with 25T and then they go and buy new models as they see that within a community they can do much more then just 1 aircraft... and this is where mission making is quite important.

Also I understand ED. They have to live out of something. DCS is free and if they don't roll our all the nice and shiny new air-frames, how to finance development that are main priority, not to say something that may be marginal importance at this point, and it well could be AI, or mission editor, or what not... (and something will always be marginal)

Maybe a good crowd funding campaign would help develop things that are considered marginal by ED atm, but important by members.
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Old 09-09-2016, 10:14 PM   #14
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As far as claiming missions are being screwed up, like its being done on purpose or without care of it happing is also a little off. As I stated, priorities are were they are right now because you need a solid core. Sure they could stop everything and work on other smaller bugs, and they could all come back again when they go back to working on the core again... you want to hang your curtains up before the walls are in place...
Keeping things in working order could also be called finishing the features that are being developed before starting new ones. Granted it would take more time to do new stuff but at least people can enjoy the sim in the mean time. Unintentionally frustrating your clients is still frustrating your clients, they might just be less angry about it if it's accident but knowledge of that still doesn't help them not get frustrated. If the fixes are intentionally not made might then again make them more angry.

Besides I'm not demanding every little bug to be fixed before doing something new. But fixing bugs with major impact as they are found would be good. Keeping missions and existing features working should be a priority for ED simply from a reputation stand point as it has big impact on how people experience DCS in the long run.
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Old 09-09-2016, 11:01 PM   #15
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I'd have gone for some of this is there wasn't so many little things wrong in the SSE for so many years. There are literally carry-overs from older versions of 1.2 that remain untouched. But the reasoning is that fixing these makes no money for ED. Wags stated publically top priority issues were the visual bugs, at least back around 1.5 release. The screenshots and videos sell the products. It's gives ED little incentive to get things like multiplayer tuned up and especially the under the hood mechanics like dedicated server, netcode, multiplayer tools, the SSE etc. Right or wrong, makes no difference, it's a business.

I'd like to think that virtual squadrons, die hard fans, server administrators and virtual content makers meant more to Eagle Dynamics than they do in comparison to other software developers, after all, look how much the community has propped up the core products. As was mentioned, the community aspect of BIS is particularly well tended and quoted by themselves as being fundamental to their development process and mindset. Here, 3rd parties, community scripters, texture artists, modellers have no luxuries. If they are lucky they may be invited to test, which ultimately means being gagged by an NDA and are too fearful to speak out. If they are not, well, if they dont get a thread stickied there is always the DCS files repository or attach their gift in a post. Underwhelming? It's just business, or their way of doing business to be more precise.

We can all talk about priority orders as if it makes logical sense. But then in the same breath things are simply untouched for these priorities, so that doesn't quite cut it to say that we have to merge two application streams first before we can move on, because DCS has been in constant development since we ever started with 1.0.0.1 and before that even.

What has been missed are these peoples contributions to the core game. The content that they have made that people experience in single and multiplayer. I can't remmeber the last time I played something without a script or a mod that hadn't taken one or more people days of their lives to create. At that lowest level you have folks slogging their hearts out, even learning programming languages. They pass their experiences up to the community where virtual squadrons develop their campaigns/missions./content and play structured gaming in. Those people and players play in large groups and attract more players and that enthusiasm is felt by many and makes them buy the next module and keep their interest.

Or people quit and play other things, as is also the case.

Whilst the actual percentage of DCS fliers that create content is much lower than the total (please bear with that assumption, its reasonable) the effect they have on everyone in the community is huge and far reaching. For me personally, game changing.

ED might love and hate this demanding community, but ignore it at their peril, its the customer it is and it at least some of the product that is sold.
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Old 09-09-2016, 11:32 PM   #16
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Keeping things in working order could also be called finishing the features that are being developed before starting new ones. Granted it would take more time to do new stuff but at least people can enjoy the sim in the mean time. Unintentionally frustrating your clients is still frustrating your clients, they might just be less angry about it if it's accident but knowledge of that still doesn't help them not get frustrated. If the fixes are intentionally not made might then again make them more angry.

Besides I'm not demanding every little bug to be fixed before doing something new. But fixing bugs with major impact as they are found would be good. Keeping missions and existing features working should be a priority for ED simply from a reputation stand point as it has big impact on how people experience DCS in the long run.
But its not just one guy doing one thing, the guys working on the core, and the core would be netcode, gui, EDGE, the scripting engine, etc, are most likely the guys busy hammering DCS into shape to get it into 2.5 shape. They are most likely not the same guys that model FMs and Aircraft systems, and therefore wouldn't get in each others way. So stating they should stop working on new items would somehow speed up core fixes isnt correct.

Have you ever lived or worked anywhere going through renovations? That is what we are experiencing now. The goal is to get to 2.5, current and older bugs may get put off to the side while that happens, you just have to accept that for now. A very extensive campaign was just released today, so you can do some incredible stuff with this supposedly super broken sim.
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Old 09-10-2016, 11:44 AM   #17
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I don't consider payware campaigns incredible stuff knowing the state of the engine and constant problems appearing in it. I might be wrong but that's the impression I have got playing DCS since 2009 and I'm not paying money to see what they offer until ED does something visible to it's habit of not paying attention to mission creators and keeping bugs from breaking old missions. I'm pretty sure payware missions are more polished and maintained than the free stuff but I doubt they can be somehow immune to bugs and broken features in the sim engine. So in the meantime I'm sticking with PvP. And I really hope CA would be made functional in PvP so A2G planes would have more meaningful work to do. Reputation is worth money even if only indirectly.

My main problem isn't just the bugs itself but that new bugs keep constantly appearing and if the bug is not immediately obvious to casual user it could be ignored for years despite core users periodically making noise of it. Now I don't think the actual reason behind it is "DCS being under development" as it is just a lame excuse (or ED needs better project management). I don't care reasons for this anyways but actual solutions. Why do we have a lofting algo in AIM-120 that only causes reduction in its range? It's obviously unfinished but left in the game despite that causing more unrealistic reduction in the capabilities than not having working lofting at all. Or the recent network data extrapolation algo that shows negative AoA in turn for planes causing serious gameplay issues. Why put something like that in the game in the first place until it's working? And even worst leaving some of the problems like these in the sim for years just because something else needs to be done in the meantime. Something is wrong with how ED develops DCS. It's not like every software suffers from the same problems, even more complicated ones than DCS. Bugs occur in every software but they usually get fixed in a reasonable time instead of being neglected. DCS gets it's bugs fixed but some of them linger on as ED doesn't consider them as issues like the users do.

Renovation is a bad example for software development. We can easily use the old working version until the new one is finished and working instead of having to suffer through things being taken apart and being non-functional. Some squadrons do this internally but for me who plays with the general online community deciding for a common version for everybody isn't a realistic option but something that ED needs to do. And if you want to use some new module you need to update anyway despite some broken features coming with it.
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Old 09-10-2016, 08:12 PM   #18
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Renovation is a bad example for software development. We can easily use the old working version until the new one is finished and working instead of having to suffer through things being taken apart and being non-functional. Some squadrons do this internally but for me who plays with the general online community deciding for a common version for everybody isn't a realistic option but something that ED needs to do. And if you want to use some new module you need to update anyway despite some broken features coming with it.
Renovation the perfect example, because they could have left you in the old version and worked on a new one, no new stuff for the old version, no real fixes or updates for the old one. And when the new one was ready, charged you for everything all over again. Instead they are working on improving the old one while you are living in it.

No matter what ED works on, there is always ways some one unhappy. They are doing their best to push the sim forward. This is what we have to work with right now. It's not ideal for everyone, but when I still see new content, new updates, new community vids and live feeds, I have to argue that you are simple projecting your disappointment on everyone else. Others are finding enjoyment in the sim, if right now you cant, then maybe its better to take a break and wait for 2.5 or other fixes you want. Its no fun being so unhappy with something. If I couldnt find enjoyment or happiness here, I wouldnt stay.
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Old 09-10-2016, 09:11 PM   #19
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... CA is one of the biggest blunders of ED so far. You can't use it in single player as AI will shoot you through trees ...
Hey Bushmanni,

Here's a post of mine from late last year (based on another thread I found via searching) that helps deal with the AI CA units seeing through blocks of trees (e.g. a chunk of forest) and structures/buildings:

https://forums.eagle.ru/showpost.php...64&postcount=5

Try this and it should help make CA more fun offline. As mentioned, remember to update these values again after each update as these boolean variables are reset to false again.
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Old 09-10-2016, 10:21 PM   #20
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Wow!!

Interesting!
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