Let's talk the P-51 in combat in DCS - Page 20 - ED Forums
 


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Old 12-18-2019, 09:38 AM   #191
grafspee
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Originally Posted by River View Post
I'd like to hear some detailed flying tips regarding the P 51 in MP. We all know it's high altitude and boom n zoom, etc.

Anyone got some precise tips for defensive maneuver and how to escape ongoing boom n zoom attacks ? Flap settings, detailed trim instructions, what maneuvers to shake Axis players ...

Thx
If you find k-4 on your tail RTB asap, don't fly slower then 350 mph if you are far from your home base.
Be as high as possible all the time.
So far i've never found bad k-4 or D-9 pilots, so i only attack with max speed then climb up, but before every attack i sweep area above target to see if anyone is guarding plane below.
I climb high and look for fight signs low, then i wait and jump on guys RTBing.
If your attack fail just buzz off quick.
I often cruise at full throttle height for 2700 rpm, i switch blower to Low so it wont flip between high and low
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Old 01-06-2020, 02:10 AM   #192
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Tying to learn to fly the p51D in a d/f against the 109 in this sim is one of the more frustrating things I've done. I've logged hours upon hours fighting the AI and it's about a 4 to 1 chance every time. (as and aside, I can tear AI P51's to shreds if I'm in a 109)

I know I'm not very good but, man it is sooo frustrating. I can't even extend because whatever I try the 109 either stays too close or actually over takes me.

I'm not really complaining yet, just a little venting of my own disappointment and frustrating in my lack of progress.

Anyway, similar to what others have stated; I'm starting to think that the P51 wasn't such hot stuff as its legend implies. I think it benefited from a host of fortunate events and timing...a lack of well trained enemies, a major numerical advantage, the fact that it had crazy long range abilities and the fact that it could deliver bombs and rockets just to name a few.
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Old 01-06-2020, 07:46 AM   #193
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Tying to learn to fly the p51D in a d/f against the 109 in this sim is one of the more frustrating things I've done. I've logged hours upon hours fighting the AI and it's about a 4 to 1 chance every time. (as and aside, I can tear AI P51's to shreds if I'm in a 109)

I know I'm not very good but, man it is sooo frustrating. I can't even extend because whatever I try the 109 either stays too close or actually over takes me.

I'm not really complaining yet, just a little venting of my own disappointment and frustrating in my lack of progress.

Anyway, similar to what others have stated; I'm starting to think that the P51 wasn't such hot stuff as its legend implies. I think it benefited from a host of fortunate events and timing...a lack of well trained enemies, a major numerical advantage, the fact that it had crazy long range abilities and the fact that it could deliver bombs and rockets just to name a few.
Only way to get away from human piloted K-4 is to put p-51 in shallow dive, but you can not slow down in p-51 if you are slow and k-4 will jump on you it is over
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Old 01-21-2020, 08:52 AM   #194
Aurelius
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Quote:
Originally Posted by River View Post
I'd like to hear some detailed flying tips regarding the P 51 in MP. We all know it's high altitude and boom n zoom, etc.

Anyone got some precise tips for defensive maneuver and how to escape ongoing boom n zoom attacks ? Flap settings, detailed trim instructions, what maneuvers to shake Axis players ...

Thx
Best advice, ... don't fly it in multiplayer solo. In fact, ... don't fly it at all. It's a piece of $#@!.

Since December 1st of 2019 until Jan 21st of 2020, I engaged in 30 dogfights after missile attacks (why missile attacks? ... the only way to be certain that an enemy is actually killed thanks to the worthless 50 cals), many from 100 meters behind the enemy. I shot down 6 and 24 times the K4s, Doras or Antons took the hits and did not die. In 12 of the engagements, I took incident strafing shots from other bogies in the area and in 10 of those 12, my engine locked up before I made it home (giving a kill to the enemy).

The P51 in multiplayer is best used if you have 2 or 3 to watch each other six's. IMHO the worst thing about the P51 is the horrible survivability. One or two stray side shots and the engine will go out. That is not a weapon that can be used in a combat zone.

I am going to assume that DCS did a pretty good job of modeling the real P51. If that is true, then I have no idea how the airframe got approved. Yes, by mid 1944, America was vastly outproducing Germany and so we could have attached guns to bricks and finished off the Luftwaffe but still, ....

Perhaps the new DM will change things slightly but I cannot recommend the P51 for any newbies, novice or intermediate level players online. It is a piece of $#%!.
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Old 01-21-2020, 12:13 PM   #195
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You cant out dive the 109, i've tested it, its vne is higher then the mustang at 528mph compared to 505 for the mustang, you cant sustain a turn on it either, it will out climb, out turn and out speed you.

until we get 150 octane mustangs and griffon spitfires like the mk14 then the K4 has advantages over all aircraft currently flying.

the only aircraft that we're getting soon that will be able to either dive with or out dive the k4 is the P-47.

what possessed ED to do the K-4 and not a g series aircraft with much better documentation and more comperable stats to the mustang is something i dont know.

thats not to say the k4 is modelled wrong, because everything does indicate to it being better then the mustang, its just that the scenario in ww2 of the U.S having more pilots and aircraft then the gemans is something that is not represented in dcs at least in burning skies where its normally 50/50 blue red split, with the splits normally being 50/50 between mustang and spitfire then 190 and 109 at least from my experiance.

the only reason i think ww2 combat in dcs is not dead in multiplayer is because the mustang can still reasonably deal with the 190 where as the spitfire can only out turn a 109 and most 109 pilots know to not turn with one, and then the i-16 is just a meme aircraft to fly online.

The 190 A8 being introduced is nice and all but way less people fly it then the other two models. even then it can still catch the mustang, not sure about out turn.
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Old 01-21-2020, 12:18 PM   #196
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As fas as i know p-51 can out dive bf 109. bf 109 has crap max mach number the lowest from all war birds, the fastest is spitfire
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Old 01-21-2020, 12:48 PM   #197
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mach changes at differant alts tho, according to him the spitfire is only highest above 22k ft (where its performance will actually be worse because its wings are low alt optimised) then the 47 runs ahead below that.

would still like to know where ED got their VNE information from for the 109 K4, the charts they use for speed it fits right in within the +/-3% that even ME used to see if a plane should be in service.

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Old 01-21-2020, 12:58 PM   #198
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mach changes at differant alts tho, according to him the spitfire is only highest above 22k ft (where its performance will actually be worse because its wings are low alt optimised) then the 47 runs ahead below that.

would still like to know where ED got their VNE information from for the 109 K4, the charts they use for speed it fits right in within the +/-3% that even ME used to see if a plane should be in service.
mach dont change at difrent alt plane max mach number stays the same. This mach number was created to set constant speed scale for given air frame. If for p-51 mach max mach number is 0.75 it will stay the same for all alt, only max mach number will be reduced at low alt because of air frame Max IAS.
Max TAS/IAS will change with alt but mach number will stay constant through alt
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Old 01-21-2020, 02:24 PM   #199
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Originally Posted by zcrazyx View Post
...
what possessed ED to do the K-4 and not a g series aircraft with much better documentation and more comperable stats to the mustang is something i dont know.
...
https://forums.eagle.ru/showthread.php?t=126824

Here is something to read for you. It wasn't ED's decision. RRG came up with the idea and then ED did take over the project. Otherwise the P-51 would probably be the only flyable warbird in DCS.

Fox
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Old 01-24-2020, 10:34 AM   #200
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Quote:
Originally Posted by River View Post
I'd like to hear some detailed flying tips regarding the P 51 in MP. We all know it's high altitude and boom n zoom, etc.

Anyone got some precise tips for defensive maneuver and how to escape ongoing boom n zoom attacks ? Flap settings, detailed trim instructions, what maneuvers to shake Axis players ...

Thx

Ok, first if you want to get down and dirty with a 109K4 you have to fly with reduced fuel. How much fuel you will take depends on how long you plan to fly and how long it will be until you think you will find an enemy. Something like 30% for a short flight and 45% for a longer flight. Experiment and see what works for you.

Next, if you want to be able to escape a fight that's not going your way you need to fly above 12000 feet. This will give you enough altitude to build your speed up in a dive and then level out into a shallow dive to extend away from a 109.

If you want to go do or die mode then feel free to fight at any altitude. Who cares if you get shot down you just get a new plane and go again.

While in a fight you want to fly as energy efficient as possible and keep your speed up as much as possible. This is because the P51D accelerates really slowly compared to the 109. Once your out of altitude and speed your basically dead. So keep your speed up in the P51D.

If your running away and trying to stay alive the best thing to do is to point your nose at the ground and build as much speed as you can before leveling out into a shallow dive. You keep the shallow dive going until you run out of altitude and then it's just flat level flight on the deck until you get to help or the enemy gets in guns range.

You HAVE to keep an eye on anyone chasing you. If they get in guns range you have no choice but to maneuver to avoid them or they will get you prop governor and your dead. At long range do gentle maneuvers just enough to throw their aim off. As they get close you will need to make stronger manuevers to avoid being shot.

With a 109 close behind you without altitude to dive away(you need 12000feet+) then you have to dodge them for as long as you can while flying to friendly AA/fighters. Scissoring is simple, easy and can make you much harder to hit. You probably won't win the scissors but you can avoid enemy bullets for a while.

You can also try some negative g's. For example you can pull a left turn, wait for the 109 to start leading you then push the nose down. If the 109 is using trim to match your turn he won't be able to push the nose down fast enough to follow you.

You can also do different combinations of barrel rolls. You may do a barrel roll to the left then pull up to look like your going to do a barrel roll to the right but then switch to the left before the dive.

Your last resort is to try and force an overshoot. You can drop some flaps, lower the throttle and maneuver to bleed enough air speed. Once you know you have the overshoot you go full throttle, flaps up (maybe open water radiator if you can) and pull up to a prop hang/loop(depends on what the 109 is doing) and try to shoot them. You can't do this for to long or to many times before your engine cooks. After forcing the overshoot you will be a sitting duck if you didn't get the kill. You dive with what altitude you have and dodge as best you can.

If you are on the offensive vs a 109 you need to be agressive and stay on the offensive. Fly efficently and get guns on where you can. Lag and pure pursuit most of the time. Lead pursuit when climbing after a 109 in the high part of its loop. Pulling lead only when I have an opportunity to shoot them and during climbing manuevers. As soon as you recognise that you are losing the advantage you dive away. I find being aggressive pays off.

The basic principles I follow are:
Reduce your fuel load.
Keep your speed up as much as possible.
Try to have enough altitude to dive away(If you really don't want to be shot down).
Keep an eye on the enemy behind you and prevent him from shooting you while keeping as much speed as possible.
Fly efficient but also aggressively when your on a 109s six.

This is what I do. It's up to you to experiment and find what works for you.

Last edited by Snapage; 01-24-2020 at 10:50 AM.
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