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Helicopters Tournament 2


Alpenwolf

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Just finished watching the video by M0ltar, joined by 104th_Maverick.

I don't know what to say about this bloody Gazelle! I don't own the module, and I can't judge how accurate it is. So I looked up some videos on youtube and it seems that the Gazelle is quite manoeuvrable to a certain degree, which didn't surprise me, knowing how small and light she is. Just not sure about that with weapons onboard. All I saw on youtube was Gazelles carrying no weapons doing some steep dives and sudden tight turns. But in this tournament the Gazelles were carrying some missiles/rockets/guns, etc.

I know the Bo-105 is damn manoeuvrable. Like really sick. So maybe the Gazelle is that manoeuvrable as well after all.

 

Read the comments on the stream as well. Many were "shouting" at Ka-50 pilots for closing in on Gazelles and Hueys instead of keeping the distance. I flew the Ka-50 myself, spotted loads of enemy helicopters and couldn't get one lock on any. Not one! Especially Gazelles. So I kept closing in hoping to get a lock. Nada! Never happened. Turned out after the event other Ka-50 pilots were having the same issue. Maybe it was the weather, not sure.

 

Hope this doesn't scare off Red pilots from signing up for upcoming rounds. The Red side in outnumbered anyway, so maybe new tactics need to be figured out. I'm curious myself.

 

 

Work on Helicopters Tournament 3 has started today.

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I see on the ka-50 thread that pilots say the shkval can only lock at full range at midday.

so 8km at high noon.

they get 3km locks in the morning and evening.

 

so it looks like its time rather than weather that effects the ka-50 ability to lock.

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Alpenwolf, it was a fun event. There aren't many MP events for chopper pilots so this was very refreshing. It made me fly the KA-50 for the first time in over 3 years.

 

I had several hueys and gazelles visually acquired from long range but couldn't get a lock with the TV targeting system at any range. I had to manually guide the vikhrs with the laser for ground targets because I couldn't get locks on them either. Eventually, I resorted to using rockets on a gazelle after dodging couple of IR missiles with flares.

 

Anyways, I'll enter the next round regardless of mission setup if there is no schedule conflict. If you are looking for a more balanced matchup, the Mistral needs to be excluded. Others may not be inclined to participate when there is lack of "balance."

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Oh, wow. You weren't able to lock any enemy Helo? Thats a gamechanging disadvantage for the Reds. In this Case the KA-50 weren't nothing more than a "dumb" Gunship without Passengerseats.

I was in a Gaz Lima and prior to the Event I did some AA-Duells against Ki-KA-50 in the Editor, in 6 of 10 Flights they finished me of with 30mm or with Vikhrs at a certain Distance. So I was sure, we will have a hard Time in the Gazelles, especial in the L Versions.

 

I guess for the next Tournament it's absolutely necessary, the Ka-50 are able to use their Ability to lock Targets at quite a Distance.

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Yes with 2.5 the Shkval lock performance overall got a lot worse.

The weather has a strong influence, rain nowadays pretty much forces sidestick manual guidance for a2a applications.

 

For streaming you can increase gamma by a lot which might make nighttime doable.

[sIGPIC][/sIGPIC]

 

*unexpected flight behaviour* Oh shiii*** ! What ? Why ? What is happening ?

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Regarding the Skhval it was a terrible experience and took some time to get used to what was going on, locks were happening about 3km so constantly being head down looking at the TV chasing helis with the target box wondering why it wouldn't lock was getting a lot of us in a World of hurt.

 

I don't think removing the Gazelle is a good idea, as much as it is a bit funky it is part of DCS and adds to the challenge. Octuplefire was an absolute menace in the Gazelle L.

I had a great last sortie splashing 3, a Huey, and 2 Mistrals. Going head to head with a Mistral that launched a couple at me whilst I had to manually guide my Vikhrs at him was amazing fun and I need more of it.

 

The level of planning and execution by Blue team is the reason they won this by a country mile, congrats to them.

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Regarding the Skhval it was a terrible experience and took some time to get used to what was going on, locks were happening about 3km so constantly being head down looking at the TV chasing helis with the target box wondering why it wouldn't lock was getting a lot of us in a World of hurt.

 

I don't think removing the Gazelle is a good idea, as much as it is a bit funky it is part of DCS and adds to the challenge. Octuplefire was an absolute menace in the Gazelle L.

I had a great last sortie splashing 3, a Huey, and 2 Mistrals. Going head to head with a Mistral that launched a couple at me whilst I had to manually guide my Vikhrs at him was amazing fun and I need more of it.

 

The level of planning and execution by Blue team is the reason they won this by a country mile, congrats to them.

Was only discussing removing the Mistral. Not all Gazelles.

The Shkval issue is really a thing. That's frustrating. Next time I'll make it midday, clear sky in summer or spring. We'll see how that works.

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How about some NVG? Lets make it at night...

I suggested that once. But then the Ka-50's would be even more crippled. The HMS wouldn't be available if you take night goggles. You can't have both.

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I see on the ka-50 thread that pilots say the shkval can only lock at full range at midday.

so 8km at high noon.

they get 3km locks in the morning and evening.

 

so it looks like its time rather than weather that effects the ka-50 ability to lock.

 

Yes, the Ka-50 shkval was nerfed since the 2.5 version or a few hotfixs later, now you have to shoot at long range with no lock at all.

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Maybe we could schedule some practice rounds for Redfor before the next event, to get some A2A experience and to figure out which tactics work and which don't.

I for one am staying with Redfor. As long as there is no Apache or Cobra Module, I'm sticking to my Werewolf (and most likely even if there were Blufor gunships).

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There were some kills by Ka-50 pilots in round 1. The sun was shining and no clouds, rain, fog etc. was there. It was midday and all that gives me the idea about how effecting these factors can be. Round 3 will have optimised weather conditions. We'll see how that goes.

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How about that for the next Tournament?

 

All Helos start Engine an do a coordinated Taxi to the Runway. At the Runway all Ships (maybe even in dedicated Flights) are waiting for the Mission to begin.

 

If theres an GCI, maybe it would be possible. Would be looking epic in the Streaming! ;-)

 

PS: As far as I know, the Minigun-Gazelle works only in Multicrew.


Edited by Camino
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  • 2 weeks later...

Thanks for arranging and flying this! Was very professional, think the mission made a lot of sense. Some very competent flying - those landings at the start were mighty impressive!

 

I guess the server enforces advanced (not gaming) mode for flight model + systems?

 

Will read the thread later - a lot was learned in that match. I think the Ka and Gazelle are very different platforms. Actually all helicopters in DCS have very distinct roles - Huey and the Magnificent8 maybe are the two closest?

 

An absolute blast to watch from start to finish... many very dramatic moments.


Edited by Varis

SA-342 Ka-50 Mi-8 AJS-37 F-18 M2000C AV-8B-N/A Mig-15bis CA --- How to learn DCS

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Comments from watching the stream and reading the thread:

 

The RED vs BLUE situation is asymmetric, because the Gazelle is much better suited to AA jobs (especially in a simulated PvP environment). Bluefor however didn't have much in the way of ground attack capability - the Ka with its heavy armament is a clear leader in this department, but in this match the RED team could not utilize this due to the Gazelles being too big a problem and because of the conditions. On a better day a competent Ka pilot could quickly clear out AI units.

 

The mistral doesn't seem to score kills easily in my very limited experience. It looks like it records very light proximity hits (seen this thrice) and you need two hits to take out a target. However it's extremely quick to get fire on targets - there is hardly any locking time at all, thus they can be a problem in a setting like this. The L model and the Hueys apparently perform quite well too, the ammunition count on the L is not a problem in this context like I thought.

 

It could be a good idea to enforce a quota for the M model (4 x HOT3 ATGM is the loadout) to make the situation more symmetric - the weapon systems (L+mistral versions) used in this scenario are also piss easy to learn and operate, thus when you start training for a new heli you are hunting people in MP by the time the Ka pilots have just learned to utilize their weapons on stationary trucks and APCs. My impression is the Ka is a more skill intensive platform overall. If the problem is more the team roster you could enforce a quota on the Gazelle minigun version (2 players per heli). Could be interesting to see how much multicrew increases situational awareness and the use of smart tactics.

 

A couple of times it seemed the Ka tail will come off quite easily - like with a short 20mm burst. Could be just how damage is applied since I understood damage models are somewhat simplistic in DCS - if not this seems like an unexpected weakness in the helicopter. Survivability seems at least fair otherwise.

 

It seemed many Ka pilots did not deploy flares. Does the threat warning system have a problem detecting the mistral? Or is it just because of the mistral's high speed and quick approach? Feels like DCS is not balanced as a PvP game (not a big surprise perhaps). It is up to the mission creator but making big changes for every match is like real warfare - there are a lot of surprises and it's hard to tell beforehand how a system performs.

 

I suppose there are some threads about the Gazelle's flight model and such?

 

Ka-50 and Gazelle are the only stable modules I have in DCS. I am low skill in both and would not take the Ka into a combat zone unless with very special niche tactics.


Edited by Varis

SA-342 Ka-50 Mi-8 AJS-37 F-18 M2000C AV-8B-N/A Mig-15bis CA --- How to learn DCS

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@ Varis

 

you don't get a launch warning when a Mistral is fired at a KA50 as it is IR guided. You only get warnings for lasers pointed at your KA50.

So you can only launch flares when you see that somebody launched a Mistral at you.

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I believe the main reason for defeat or victory is team work. Coordinated attacks with more than lone wolves guys coming like lemmings in a counter strike fashion. If you die, do not spawn and rush into battle again: wait for a flight, make a plan, the execute the plan. Fly missions, not air quake ;)

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