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Why is it So hard to land the MI 8


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I love flying all the helo's including the MI 8 , I have very little difficulty landing the KA 50, the Huey or the Gazelle but when it comes to the 8 I windup chasing the VSI and it gets into VRS so easy and drops like a rock, if I try to come in and hover then land, a rolling landing is easy,but there are times when thats not possible. I am using a warthog hotas, is there special curves or a secret incantation or maybe I need one stiff drink, whats the secret?

Thanks I hate sucking at landing :crash:

 

You compare Motorcycles with a Bus, you know what I mean?

I had the same problem, the engine RPM drops by lowering the collective. You need to rise the collective much earlier, because if you rise it to late and to fast, you lose your rotor RPM, because the engine can't keep up fast enough. Watch decent rate and RPM.

---

Or much better.. a Gazelle compared with a Cow :laugh:

With a full loaded truck you need more time to break than with a car, you know.


Edited by Jafferson
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  • 2 weeks later...

Even after years with the Mi-8....1 sleepy moment and down she goes when trying to touch down.

 

 

 

You need to constantly watch VSI, always, be gentle, be early in what you do and have confidence in what you do, sometimes she takes a second to react as assumed. Overdo anything and you ask for big trouble. When that happens, dive out the best you can or crash land while trying that and hope you can still extract troops and cargo, despite the broken bird and lost live.

 

 

I consider the Mi-8 being a Milk-Truck. That assumption won't lead you wrong.

 

 

DO NOT think of Ferrari's !

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Even after years with the Mi-8....1 sleepy moment and down she goes when trying to touch down.

 

You need to constantly watch VSI, always, be gentle, be early in what you do and have confidence in what you do, sometimes she takes a second to react as assumed. Overdo anything and you ask for big trouble. When that happens, dive out the best you can or crash land while trying that and hope you can still extract troops and cargo, despite the broken bird and lost live.

 

I consider the Mi-8 being a Milk-Truck. That assumption won't lead you wrong.

 

DO NOT think of Ferrari's !

 

I do sort of like in this video, looks to be around 3 degree glide slope same as an airplane, as you come down also slow down etc.

 


Edited by David OC

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One exercise that I have found useful, is to get out on a runway at about a 100 foot hover and transition to forward flight without climbing, and accelerate to about 150KPH and then begin a deceleration back to a hover, holding that same 100 feet throughout the maneuver. It is a great coordination exercise that teaches you what to do with each one of the controls. Do this a couple of times and then go fly around for a little bit and then come back to the runway and try it again. I think you will find this a very good training exercise - in any of the helicopters available in DCS. I use it while training pilots in the real world and it is very effective.

 

I self taught myself the huey doing something similar.

instead of hovering at either end of the runway I did a landing. on the numbers.

 

a few hours of this instead of doing missions really taught me to fly helicopters.

now I do it in all the helicopters to learn them :)

My Rig: AM5 7950X, 32GB DDR5 6000, M2 SSD, EVGA 1080 Superclocked, Warthog Throttle and Stick, MFG Crosswinds, Oculus Rift.

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One of the errors one easily make is comming in too high.

Also note that the scale of the VSI is different and more course than for the UH-1D.

As You deccelerate, pepare to add collective as You come out of translational lift.

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sorry for taking long to answer. the chart is not accurate. I used it to convey that as you reduce your collective, you taper the reduction, not slice it. Meaning:

 

If in hover your % of collective is 100%, you drop down to 90% then immediately go back to 95%. This should "arrest" your descent or sink rate. But I am sure you already knew this. Like in hornet.

 

Roger get it now, I try to keep VSI as constant as I can by bleeding just enough collective as needed to regulate VSI in practice they are likely representative but understand that method.

 

 

One thing to note for landing the Mi8 even the KA 50 both are 10 ish tones of helicopter, is the fact that decent rate will increase significantly when you drop collective and the VSI is really showing the past not the exact present so it is very easy to fall through 3 meters per second rate.

 

 

I try to keep VSI around 2 to 3 metres per second whilst still in ETL (>100K) however below ETL (<60K) stick with 1 to 2 metres per second and err closer to the 1 meter per second till about 3 to 5 metres above ground then 0.5 meters per second or less. Ideally The Mi8 has enough power to vertically hover all day IGE.

 

 

There is good reasoning to keep the VSI low you only have limited power and limited energy stored in the rotor deplete either and you are stuffed. O/P try landing with one engine she becomes interesting I tend to halve or more those VSI rates.

 

 

Also depending on the input device your using for collective you might consider applying some curvature to expand the range of movement of input device to change of value. This will give a more fine input at the lower end of travel and avoid the sudden drop off onto the ground. I found that very useful when using the "slider" input on my old logitech joystick as collective.

 

Doing so doesn't really effect the top end/cruse that much either, it may make setting power for cruse a tad finicky but you have time to deal with it where as when landing you don't.

 

Anyway that's got me enthused to take the Mi8 out for some fun. :pilotfly:

Control is an illusion which usually shatters at the least expected moment.

Gazelle Mini-gun version is endorphins with rotors. See above.

 

Currently rolling with a Asus Z390 Prime, 9600K, 32GB RAM, SSD, 2080Ti and Windows 10Pro, Rift CV1. bu0836x and Scratch Built Pedals, Collective and Cyclic.

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Having just bought the Mi-8 and I don't know all the procedural stuff all that well, but just trying to fly the thing, I found it pretty straight forward to transition into a hover and land by increasing the engine condition levers to the upper positions rather than center.. and back down to center for anything but takeoff and landing. Before I looked around and saw the two engine condition levers I was plummeting into the ground anytime I got close to hover speed.

 

I had to look them up in the manual or I'd have referred to them as throttles based on my Ka-50 experience, but full up = Take off power, makes sense to me to use that setting if I want to hover or land.

 

Personally, I disagree with any curves on the collective. I need that axis to remain constant throughout the entire throw in any DCS chopper.


Edited by Headwarp
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Sim hardware - VKB MCG Ultimate with 200mm extension, Virpil T-50CM3 Dual throttles.   Blackhog B-explorer (A), TM Cougar MFD's (two), MFG Crosswinds with dampener.   Obutto R3volution gaming pit.  

 

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Having just bought the Mi-8 and I don't know all the procedural stuff all that well, but just trying to fly the thing, I found it pretty straight forward to transition into a hover and land by increasing the engine condition levers to the upper positions rather than center.. and back down to center for anything but takeoff and landing. Before I looked around and saw the two engine condition levers I was plummeting into the ground anytime I got close to hover speed.

 

I had to look them up in the manual or I'd have referred to them as throttles based on my Ka-50 experience, but full up = Take off power, makes sense to me to use that setting if I want to hover or land.

 

Personally, I disagree with any curves on the collective. I need that axis to remain constant throughout the entire throw in any DCS chopper.

 

Interesting I have never had to do that in normal flight. Usually you fall if you didn't anticipate for loss of lift as you come out of ETL.

 

 

Each to their own on the collective and curves but if your using a short throw control AKA a slider or such you might find the finer rate control at the start of collective travel to be helpful especially starting off at pickup set down and hover, besides the upper portion tends to be compressed in terms of effect verses travel anyway with or without curves. :)

Control is an illusion which usually shatters at the least expected moment.

Gazelle Mini-gun version is endorphins with rotors. See above.

 

Currently rolling with a Asus Z390 Prime, 9600K, 32GB RAM, SSD, 2080Ti and Windows 10Pro, Rift CV1. bu0836x and Scratch Built Pedals, Collective and Cyclic.

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Interesting I have never had to do that in normal flight. Usually you fall if you didn't anticipate for loss of lift as you come out of ETL.

 

 

Each to their own on the collective and curves but if your using a short throw control AKA a slider or such you might find the finer rate control at the start of collective travel to be helpful especially starting off at pickup set down and hover, besides the upper portion tends to be compressed in terms of effect verses travel anyway with or without curves. :)

 

I find that the curve tends to throw of my sense of how much power I'm actually applying as you move away from the center of the curve. Perhaps my WH throttle does provide a longer throw than say an x55 or something, but I do find it much easier to control my climb/descent with a linear axis for the collective personally even if it does take learning to make gentle/small corrections. My experiences adding a curve had me all over the place. It's hard to describe, just the changing length of throttle movement for x amount of power increase/decrease at different positions in the throttle threw me off, personally.

 

 

And normal flight keeping the ECL's @ center is fine.. could fly til it ran out of fuel. It's just when approaching hover that I need to move them up, if not to max/take off power just beneath it.

 

IDK if you're supposed to leave them centered for runway approach, but she's easier to whip around at low speeds near the ground with the ECL's up. Certainly easier to maintain a controlled descent rather than fall like a rock if the OP is struggling.


Edited by Headwarp
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Win 11 Pro, z790 i9 13900k, RTX 4090 , 64GB DDR 6400GB, OS and DCS are on separate pci-e 4.0 drives 

Sim hardware - VKB MCG Ultimate with 200mm extension, Virpil T-50CM3 Dual throttles.   Blackhog B-explorer (A), TM Cougar MFD's (two), MFG Crosswinds with dampener.   Obutto R3volution gaming pit.  

 

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I find that the curve tends to throw of my sense of how much power I'm actually applying as you move away from the center of the curve. Perhaps my WH throttle does provide a longer throw than say an x55 or something, but I do find it much easier to control my climb/descent with a linear axis for the collective personally even if it does take learning to make gentle/small corrections. My experiences adding a curve had me all over the place. It's hard to describe, just the changing length of throttle movement at different positions in the throttle threw me off, personally.

 

Yes it would be a learned experience or at least muscle memory for position to power I just remember when I used a logitech 3D pro the slider had maybe 70deg travel and was about 10mm (3/8') in length. It was ridiculous :cry:

 

I actually still use some curve with a full size collective just to fine tune it. ;)

 

I'm now trying to make the V-Sim pit more ergonomic rather than outright model accurate besides I'd have to make multiple V-Sim pits and that wouldn't fly. :music_whistling:

 

 

And normal flight keeping the ECL's @ center is fine.. could fly til it ran out of fuel. It's just when approaching hover that I need to move them up, if not to max/take off power just beneath it.

 

IDK if you're supposed to leave them centered for runway approach, but she's easier to whip around at low speeds near the ground with the ECL's up.

 

Do you get increased EGT and how much time can you operate like that?

 

<edit>

note to self yes EGT increases but don't put them to low when flying it's outright dangerous:megalol:,..


Edited by FragBum

Control is an illusion which usually shatters at the least expected moment.

Gazelle Mini-gun version is endorphins with rotors. See above.

 

Currently rolling with a Asus Z390 Prime, 9600K, 32GB RAM, SSD, 2080Ti and Windows 10Pro, Rift CV1. bu0836x and Scratch Built Pedals, Collective and Cyclic.

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Yes it would be a learned experience or at least muscle memory for position to power I just remember when I used a logitech 3D pro the slider had maybe 70deg travel and was about 10mm (3/8') in length. It was ridiculous :cry:

 

I actually still use some curve with a full size collective just to fine tune it. ;)

 

I'm now trying to make the V-Sim pit more ergonomic rather than outright model accurate besides I'd have to make multiple V-Sim pits and that wouldn't fly. :music_whistling:

 

 

 

 

Do you get increased EGT and how much time can you operate like that?

 

<edit>

note to self yes EGT increases but don't put them to low when flying it's outright dangerous:megalol:,..

 

I honestly need to likely check the manual for what EGT to stay under and how long, but it's not like you're just going to be holding the collective at max, the power is there if you start to stumble but I was able to taxi around an airport wheels off the ground like I was in a huey. It takes less collective to achieve the lift to stay afloat with the ECL up.

 

I feel like it's safe to say you can stay within the EGT limits for the majority of your time spent in a hover or descending at take off power. But that's just my best guess. If I started to enter anything resembling a vortex it only took at most a few seconds of what might be unsafe limits to sort myself out. But, I feel way less likely to hear that shakey sound at all with the ECL's @ take-off.


Edited by Headwarp
Spoiler

Win 11 Pro, z790 i9 13900k, RTX 4090 , 64GB DDR 6400GB, OS and DCS are on separate pci-e 4.0 drives 

Sim hardware - VKB MCG Ultimate with 200mm extension, Virpil T-50CM3 Dual throttles.   Blackhog B-explorer (A), TM Cougar MFD's (two), MFG Crosswinds with dampener.   Obutto R3volution gaming pit.  

 

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Yes you can work within EGT just fine the increase in rotor RPM might be a gotcha as you may more easily over rev the rotor with attendant gen # fail yada yada. :joystick:

 

More experimenting to do. :pilotfly:

Control is an illusion which usually shatters at the least expected moment.

Gazelle Mini-gun version is endorphins with rotors. See above.

 

Currently rolling with a Asus Z390 Prime, 9600K, 32GB RAM, SSD, 2080Ti and Windows 10Pro, Rift CV1. bu0836x and Scratch Built Pedals, Collective and Cyclic.

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Absolutely worth checking I can vouch you sink like a rock if you put them to idle at hover dam VR and mouse make things interesting. :P

 

All good I learnt something new, off to make my Bechamel source for my Moussaka. :D:thumbup:

Control is an illusion which usually shatters at the least expected moment.

Gazelle Mini-gun version is endorphins with rotors. See above.

 

Currently rolling with a Asus Z390 Prime, 9600K, 32GB RAM, SSD, 2080Ti and Windows 10Pro, Rift CV1. bu0836x and Scratch Built Pedals, Collective and Cyclic.

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Raising the ECLs has the same effect as raising the collective, just without increasing blade pitch. That is, increasing collective and increasing ECL both increase the engine's "internal" throttle. Note that with the ECL full up you cannot pull the collective full up. At least not on the real thing you can't, you'll hit physical stops on the engine fuel control unit. As you've probably already noticed, raising the ECLs will increase your rotor RPM. This is because you're essentially overpowering the main rotor speed governor in the engines. You should see your rotor RPM at around 97-99% with the ECLS full up and the main rotor speed governor resetting switch probably won't do anything.

 

In reality, the ECLs are only moved for testing the engines separately or in response to certain malfunctions. But it'a all good, you do you. I'm all for people playing the way that results in them getting the most enjoyment out of it. :)

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I used to love this module, but now it is almost impossible to land. It cant be "realistic" that the helicopter chras into ground with minimum of change of throttle.

 

I don't think anything has changed as far as the Mi8 goes, perhaps check you settings somethings may be incorrect this can happen with updates. However all the helis seem fine to me. :thumbup:

 

The Mi8 is just great if your having issues landing review you rate of decent verses AIS, if your out of ETL and or OGE you need to limit you vertical decent to around 1 to 2 meters/second otherwise you will fall out of the sky. Indeed for vertical decent if you keep VSI somewhere around 0.8 metre/second you'll come into a hover at about 3 metres just from IGE. :)

Control is an illusion which usually shatters at the least expected moment.

Gazelle Mini-gun version is endorphins with rotors. See above.

 

Currently rolling with a Asus Z390 Prime, 9600K, 32GB RAM, SSD, 2080Ti and Windows 10Pro, Rift CV1. bu0836x and Scratch Built Pedals, Collective and Cyclic.

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Never needed anything but collective for all situations. Just take it s l o w

 

 

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Never needed anything but collective for all situations. Just take it s l o w

 

 

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No matter how slow I take it, when it comes to a certain points the whole helicopter begin to shake and it's only down from there. Even if I try to give it some throttle again when the shaking begins. I use a Saitec X52 Pro, but as I wrote earlyer, I never had so big problem with it before.

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Check your config, because the chopper definitely has not changed as of late, at least in the beta. Take it from me, about 2000hrs in the Hip already.

The DCS Mi-8MTV2. The best aviational BBW experience you could ever dream of.

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OK, despite of being the beery man of Northern Hemisphere at the moment, did a full startup plus a rolling takeoff, a rolling landing, a stationary/hover takeoff and a stationary/hover landing and I'm 100% sure nothing at all has changed with the burdie. You sure you've checked that config again?

The DCS Mi-8MTV2. The best aviational BBW experience you could ever dream of.

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OK, despite of being the beery man of Northern Hemisphere at the moment, did a full startup plus a rolling takeoff, a rolling landing, a stationary/hover takeoff and a stationary/hover landing and I'm 100% sure nothing at all has changed with the burdie. You sure you've checked that config again?

I just dont know what to check in the config LOL :)

I Only know I had no problem before the the releese of the Persian Gulf and the updates around that.

I will try to delete the config and make a new one and see if it helps...

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