Why is the Viper getting TWS before the Hornet?

Unacceptable. We paid for the F-18 so we could have F-18 functionality and help with it's development, not so they could develop another module. If the F-16 gets tws before the hornet, I will be very pissed off.

I guess I'm in the minority that love both planes so much that its not that hard to swallow the viper get it a bit first. In fact, after a year of incredible fun in the hornet i see it like "ok, time to fully enjoy the viper for some weeks".

 

Lets be practical, please ED do it the best efficient way but do it, I do want TWS on my hornet, but i'm totally okay if this is better.

 

Keep calm guys and enjoy both birds!

Here Here!

I guess I'm in the minority that love both planes so much that its not that hard to swallow the viper get it a bit first. In fact, after a year of incredible fun in the hornet i see it like "ok, time to fully enjoy the viper for some weeks".

 

Lets be practical, please ED do it the best efficient way but do it, I do want TWS on my hornet, but i'm totally okay if this is better.

 

Keep calm guys and enjoy both birds!

I only have the Hornet.

I only have the Hornet.

So i guess this is not the best time to talk you about the benefits and virtues of the viper... XD

Don't bother with weapon-systems unless you have a 60+ points avarage in Banklers Case 1 Trainer (I'm currently stuck around 50-55 points on avarage).

Good thing is you don't have to whine about missing systems and weapons all the time but instead continue to learn to fly your aircraft properly.

:smartass::music_whistling::D

How do you know that's not the case ?

 

Maybe the Hornet team didn't change, and now there is new guy working on the F-16 radar, and thanks to that synergy we'll have the TWS earlier ...

 

Maybe not, but can't afirm neither

How do we know? Because Nine, Wags, Nick, Newy have all confirmed that the Hornet team was moved over to the Viper, it was even in the newsletter. That's how we know, we also know because some one said *eyes nine* that they only have one radar programmer at the moment.

So yeah we know that it's 1 guy.

On the 'you know what your were buying Early Access' and ED doesn't owe you anything comments that get thrown around, actually ED should be giving a time frame for EA to finished release and if I am not mistaken if they are doing EA on Steam they have to give at least a rough idea of how long they believe something is going to be in 'Early Access' these days after valve got burned by a number of games etc being in EA for well ever. It's why the changes to things like Release Dates etc have all been made (and that was also one of the reasons given for the move of the Hornet team and the rush on the Viper, they needed to get it out due to having missed the original steam projection at least according to what reps have said both here and on Hoggit). A lot of the anger that has built up since the Viper wouldn't be here IF there was a proper roadmap and a proper release schedule, but there is neither. After a really indepth discussion with Nick Grey on hoggit we got the start of a roadmap in the last newsletter but it's not a true one because it's just well dot points with these are what we plan to release next but it's still better then nothing.

And while yes EA is what the Hornet is in lets be clear about something when you buy into that your buying in expecting that the product you have brought will be completed as early as possible and with all resources needed assigned to it until that point is reached. That is what it seems the majority of the community expected based on the sentiment here on the forums and else were. When the Viper etc was hinted at and then announced people specifically asked rather pointedly if it being done would take resources away, they also asked about other modules like the YAK etc taking away from the Hornet, again and again the official response was 'No they are all their own teams'. Then we got told that the Hornets dev team had been moved to the Viper to help get it to release, now we know from hoggit and Nick that this was due to them needing to get it out because of the Steam Release date being set and that they wanted it out also before the Autumn Sale (why i don't know because it's not on sale...) shortly before all this though we'd been told TWS and the like was 'Almost done and would be out soon, the wall eye was almost done' and that as soon as the viper released that the team would be back working on the hornet including TWS.

We know what happened we can recount it easily enough Viper released people asked if the Dev's were back, Wags said 'not yet' and the news letter said that they would return in the coming weeks. Ok, and then we get told TWS is coming for the viper first and you end up here and the slinging match of evreything happens all over again, Nine and Newy get frustrated because they are trying to actually do what they have said and open up and be more transperant and fair etc on the forums and yet at the same time there damned if they do and there damned if they don't because no matter what they do there is gonna be a chunk of people who aren't happy no matter what happens if the Viper gets features that the Hornet is meant to have BEFORE the Hornet due to the Hornet having been in E.A longer.

It's why multiple EA releases can bite them in the rear, it's why it has. Because even if they are doing everything they can to be 'fair' there is always going to be the feeling now amongst some of the user base that the Hornet's new features are being sacrificed for the Viper to get it's first because it's the new shinny bird that they want to get $$ for. It won't matter if that's not true etc, that's just how we as humans work and it doesn't help that there isn't any clear timelines even in 'general' x months worth because it allows for the speculation. For all we know (and actually I suspect this) Both projects will go faster now because the last several years have been spent laying the API work needed, that's part of why the Radar guy spending this time to do what he's done for the Viper does make sense.. He was moved, he kept programming and completed the API.. because he was on the Viper at the time he simply finished the implementation of how it looks front end there. Makes sense from a programming point of view, makes sense from a company point of view too.

But knowing that and even being able to explain it etc won't instantly fix the hurt feelings people have or the mistrust caused by the handling of the past few weeks. Only time and honesty etc will and that as I said means ED is gonna have to grow a thick skin and wear it for a while until they can build back up some trust.

But throwing 'wells you knew what you were buying into' around won't solve that either because people brought into EA with expectations and ED has as I've said clearly not recently meet those expectations.

So i guess this is not the best time to talk you about the benefits and virtues of the viper... XD

I don't think there's any Viper vs Hornet hassle. We're all in the same team and we all wish an efficient, coherent and fair development process for the whole DCS World thing. TBH, if it happens that I notice a significant evolution in this direction, I'll buy the Viper to support DCS, although it's unlikely that I will really fly that bird.

Unacceptable. We paid for the F-18 so we could have F-18 functionality and help with it's development, not so they could develop another module. If the F-16 gets tws before the hornet, I will be very pissed off.

Look at it this way, If the Viper gets it first we have to be the lab rats for any bugs that pop up and have the opportunity to flesh out the kinks. This way the F-18 gets a more complete TWS at patch release then the Viper. It's a glass half full/half empty point of view but might make the pill slightly easier to swallow. I own both planes so I get what you're saying, but remember 16 drivers paid for the 16 too.

Either way, I feel that both these planes can and will improve and grow together. Viper can help the Hornet just as much as the Hornet helps the Viper.

Just my opinion though.

Don't bother with weapon-systems unless you have a 60+ points avarage in Banklers Case 1 Trainer (I'm currently stuck around 50-55 points on avarage).

 

:smartass::music_whistling::D

Just tried it. You can get 50-55 with sloppy half-assed approach.

Easily 60+ . Now, where's my TWS? :lol:

I don't care which gets it first - the Hornet is already much more capable from a sensors point of view with fully fleshed out LTWS, MSI and SA pages.

And one can actually read the Hornet's MFDs as well. :-)

 

It's why the changes to things like Release Dates etc have all been made (and that was also one of the reasons given for the move of the Hornet team and the rush on the Viper, they needed to get it out due to having missed the original steam projection at least according to what reps have said both here and on Hoggit).

Yea, I don't think that is correct. Steam requires an actual release date to do pre-orders but ED said that wasn't a hard date. More of rough guess. I've only been around for two releases, 14 and 16, but both seemed to be given a 2-3 month time frame when ED thinks it will release. The Steam release date issue was based on the fact ED was trying to extend the pre-order status on Steam, at least that is what I thought.

And while yes EA is what the Hornet is in lets be clear about something when you buy into that your buying in expecting that the product you have brought will be completed as early as possible and with all resources needed assigned to it until that point is reached.

I believe EA is done to do the following:

*To test, improve, and allow consumer feedback and bug reporting

*To bring systems online at a slower pace to lesson any issues new systems can cause with already released systems.

*I'm guessing at this one but I would think these planes take 3-4 years to fully recreate in the sim. That is a long time between releases, and that is a super long time between making money on a base Sim/game that is free to EVERYONE.

It's not about getting it fast, it's about making sure the quality becomes the primary goal.

When the Viper etc was hinted at and then announced people specifically asked rather pointedly if it being done would take resources away, they also asked about other modules like the YAK etc taking away from the Hornet, again and again the official response was 'No they are all their own teams'. Then we got told that the Hornets dev team had been moved to the Viper to help get it to release, now we know from hoggit and Nick that this was due to them needing to get it out because of the Steam Release date being set and that they wanted it out also before the Autumn Sale.

I don't remember reading that devs were moved around to make sure it hit Steam release date. Again, Steam won't let you do Pre-Order sales without a actual release date given. We were told on these forums that the Steam date was not a set in stone date multiple times.

It's why multiple EA releases can bite them in the rear, it's why it has. Because even if they are doing everything they can to be 'fair' there is always going to be the feeling now amongst some of the user base that the Hornet's new features are being sacrificed for the Viper to get it's first because it's the new shinny bird that they want to get $$ for.

Again, why is it so hard to understand that some of these systems can/could work in parallel to one another. Just because the Viper gets something first doesn't mean that Hornet will suffer for it. That being said I agree with you that having to many planes in EA from ED/3rd Party is not a great idea.

But throwing 'wells you knew what you were buying into' around won't solve that either because people brought into EA with expectations and ED has as I've said clearly not recently meet those expectations.

Sorry I honestly think most user don't fully understand the purpose of EA. Just my opinion.

We want RAID mode done (first),

more fair and effective than shoot-'m-up TWS in air battle.

In MP server dog fighting BTW - my new setup trail - I had some guy in F15 gun me down about two (2) dozen times and I had a good look at the flight envelopes difference.

F15 can line up gun sight a FA18C, any speed any turn any angle.

That's not fair (F16 is our natural adversary, besides SU's).

Again, why is it so hard to understand that some of these systems can/could work in parallel to one another.

Maybe because some of us (me for example) are ED customers since last century and already saw a few seasons of the show. For modules. For core features. Etc. We became human encyclopedias of the good excuse for project postponement. Our enthusiasm is still there. Our trust, a little less. We want to read a little less words and touch a little more often the reality of the finished work.

At the current time I only own the F-18, but I don't mind the F-16 getting TWS first. If working on the F-16 first is more efficient and the development will benefit both modules, then that's perfectly fine. It's also in line with some of the communities own desires to quicken module development.

I don't understand the calls to delay the F-16 TWS artificially.

Maybe because some of us (me for example) are ED customers since last century and already saw a few seasons of the show. For modules. For core features. Etc. We became human encyclopedias of the good excuse for project postponement. Our enthusiasm is still there. Our trust, a little less. We want to read a little less words and touch a little more often the reality of the finished work.

Totally get that and can't say anything about older projects as I simply wasn't around then. Wish I had been though. I guess I'm too new to have started losing trust in ED/3rd Party.

What people fail to understand is that software development isn't a 1st grade math problem... X number of workers produce Y number of cars for Z time....

Getting in to context is major time waster in the software development... so development time for Viper Radar -> Viper TWS -> Hornet TWS is NOT the same time as Viper Radar -> Hornet TWS -> Viper TWS the second path could be actuality much much longer.

Getting in to context is major time waster in the software development... so development time for Viper Radar -> Viper TWS -> Hornet TWS is NOT the same time as Viper Radar -> Hornet TWS -> Viper TWS the second path could be actuality much much longer.

…but that's assuming you skip the step before that, where they've already picked a much longer path than is necessary and tied themselves up in a path dependency that didn't need to be there to begin with. You're offering a pretty good argument why the Hornet should have gotten TWS long before the Viper, though. ;)

Holy smokes!

First of all, people who are frustrated are that way because their expectations are violated. It’s a normal reaction for humans. I get it!

TWS will become available for both birds in time. The hornet hasn’t had TWS all this time and I still enjoy flying it very much. When the viper has TWS and not the hornet, I will still enjoy flying the hornet. When the hornet eventually gets TWS, no change to my enjoyment.

Just have some patience and enjoy this modern military flight simulator. :)

What people fail to understand is that software development isn't a 1st grade math problem... X number of workers produce Y number of cars for Z time....

 

Getting in to context is major time waster in the software development... so development time for Viper Radar -> Viper TWS -> Hornet TWS is NOT the same time as Viper Radar -> Hornet TWS -> Viper TWS the second path could be actuality much much longer.

You're probably right, but what causes disappointment to many Hornet users is seeing that their module will get such an important feature after another one released more than a year later. The customer's problem is that it feels unfair, whatever problem is software development.

In any case, the advancement of the hornet as of the viper and the development of new systems will inevitably have to arrive before one or another module, but the work done will not take long to integrate to the next and so it will happen until they are finished.

Note: Buy the 2 modules and receive the news to your DCS. ;)

Can't wait to know what new module will get the ATFLIR before the Hornet following this logic ;)

Can't wait to know what new module will get the ATFLIR before the Hornet following this logic ;)

ATFLIR has only capable on Navy F/A-18 aircrafts, the F-16CM coming with Litening pod,

implemented in the Hornet yet.

https://forums.eagle.ru/showthread.php?t=241132

AN/AAQ-28(V) LITENING targeting pod

Getting in to context is major time waster in the software development... so development time for Viper Radar -> Viper TWS -> Hornet TWS is NOT the same time as Viper Radar -> Hornet TWS -> Viper TWS the second path could be actuality much much longer.

This is why Engineers are frequently not customer facing. Optics and context matter.

What ED did is they failed to properly manage customer expectations. Had the communication been better we would have known the radar guy was prioritizing the Viper over the Hornet. Based on communication I have read it sounded like all the Hornet devs were back on the Hornet. This was not the case. So finding out the Viper radar is advancing further and faster than the Hornet killed my expectations.

Reading a bit between the lines

Ok, here is the deal, and I am sure it won't make it any easier, but it was determined that it would be more efficient for the Radar guy to stay put and finish what he is doing on the Viper, THAT said, the work he is doing on the Viper is still mutually beneficial to the Hornet, and while it ends up that the Viper gets it first, the development aside from tying it into the Hornet systems will be all but done.

It sounds keeping the radar guy on the viper shortens the overall tail to the timeline at the cost of delaying the Hornet progression. This makes sense, BUT explaining to your customer WHY this is the better path and WHY a 1-month-old module is getting a feature over a 1.5 year old module matters.

If we saw something like the attached imagine to explain this... it would be clear as day. Especially on a title that has been out for 1.5+ years. This would be a no-brain'er; in my hypothetical example...we gain 2 weeks of development capacity with this decision.

I deal with this type of communication all the time. This could have been managed and articulated better.