What are the differences between the BF109, Dora, Pony?

definitely the 262

Unreliable engines.

I agree with the "different class" (still a fighter though), but definitely not a different age. 262 saw frontline action before the Dora or the K4.

Anyway...i hope this bird will make it to DCS soon..but the server hosts will have to elaborate a system to limit them..otherwise you won't see much else flying around :huh:

I hope we get the 262 as well. I have been very impressed with the DCS models.

I was not referring to a timeline in the term age but rather "a period in the history of aviation defined by the advent of aircraft powered by turbine engines, and by the social change this brought about."

Lots of Bronze Age weapons co-existed alongside iron in the beginning of the Iron Age. Does not mean they are from the same age.

While i am very new in DCS, i know a lot about planes, especially WW2. I have several books, mostly in german (cause i am german), and i read pretty much every biography from the famous german aces. A few assumptions i read so far in this topic are not entirely right - there is a difference between the Anton and the Dora, and a lot of the assumptions i read in this topic belong to the Anton, but not so much to the Dora.

To understand the strengths of the Dora it's important to know, why it was built, first of all. The Dora pretty much the german direct counter to the american p51. When the P51(D) came to europe in bigger numbers, it was the first plane to really outclass the G6. (yes, there were a few other planes, which where better in certain attributes, but G6 could always use her own strengths to turn the tide. With the Mustang it changed, the P51 was better in high speed manouvering, had a better energy retention and had more performance at high altitude, and also better divespeed, so pretty much all the attributes the germans used against their enemies till that point. How the fight was set up there high over the clouds, the G6 did poor against the mustang. With the G14AS (and later the G10,also K4) it became better, but it's weaknesses (bad high speed manouverability and divespeed) stayed, and they couldn't be solved. So the Germans analyzed the Mustang precisely, and built a plane, which countered (and outclassed) the Mustang in it's particular strengths. The Dora. Very good high speed manouverabilty (slightly better then Mustang), better role at all speeds - read an interesting article from a german (ace) pilot, who explained, that the Mustang literally couldn't get a shot at him, even if it was on his 6, because everytime the Mustang came close to a shooting position, the Dora could just do a 90-270° role and evade out of his sight, where the Mustang just couldn't follow (of course only in 1v1 situations). Dora is also even better in a dive, and matches the Mustang in climb rate and energy retention. So in the hands of a proper pilots, the Dora was slightly better then the Mustang in the common combat situations, and probably the best mass produced(!) propeller fighter in the war(Ta152 even better). Of course it wouldn't be wise, to take a Dora into a dogfight against a Yak3 at low altitude. So it's not easy to elect "the best", i think you have to look at the environment, before choosing a favourite.

The K4 had still all the 109 weaknesses like explained above, but it had one significant advantage over the Mustang, the climbrate. Read about numerois occasions, where outnumbered german pilots just hit the Mw50, went into a steep climb, and evaded the Mustangs in this way. But this is the only real advantage.

In normal combat situations the Dora covered the better armed german fighters like the 190 Anton and the 109, who were supposed to attack the bombers. Dora however provided cover for them, and were supposed to engage and detract the Mustangs from attacking the less performing Anton and 109s.

Dora was in contrary to the Anton only very rarely used as Jabo, it was just to valuable for those tasks - but of course, due to the low german numbers of planes and pilots at the end of the war, every german plane had to be able to execute a large spectrum of tasks, so the Dora.

 

But after all it's up to the pilot - and using the strenghts of their planes properly. If you are more a high speed junkie take the Dora..if you are more a turn and burn aerial cavalier, using slow speed hammerheads, the Kurfürst is just your thing!

Quite well written. Turn and burn cavalier is more my style so I'm relegated to high altitude now in the Mustang. It's no bad thing because I like being up there, I've got the option of diving on someone if I so wish although I'm a terrible shot so it doesn't always work out well for me.

I wonder what your opinion of the spitfire models is regarding turning and burning versus the 109 models.

The Dora. Very good high speed manouverabilty (slightly better then Mustang), better role at all speeds - read an interesting article from a german (ace) pilot, who explained, that the Mustang literally couldn't get a shot at him, even if it was on his 6, because everytime the Mustang came close to a shooting position, the Dora could just do a 90-270° role and evade out of his sight, where the Mustang just couldn't follow (of course only in 1v1 situations).

Absolutely. Agility negates level turn ability. Lateral control research exploded during World War II and the results were highly classified well into the 1960's.

I attached a paper on the contribution of Agility to Fighter design from the American Institute of Aeronautics and Astronautics (AIAA) members library.

Also include is an article about the development of the FW-190.

snip

Ummm... The Dora (as I read) was made because high alt fighting was not for the Anton versions (too weak at high alt) and so they needed a new engine, so Kurt Tank's crew put the Ju88 engine into the plane, as it was available. I heard that Tank didn't like the idea because he wanted the plane to be Radial (more rugged) but the optimal performance at high alt wasn't achievable with BMW engines. So they went with V12 Jumo engine instead. They had to lenghten the feuselage to compensate for the long nose. It was a compromise, not a real project to "counter" the P-51. More of a improvment to high altitude performance of the Fw190A.

The Roll capablity of the plane was present in Anton versions as well and it was already a good diver and had very good high speed handling since first "Butcher birds" arrived.

Anton attacked the bomber formations and weren't directly targeting escorts (mostly). That job was for the Bf109 and Fw190D9 as it was at least capable of dealing with them. Anton was just too slow:book:

I suppose Bf109G6/U4 was also in the anti-bomber duty. Later everything went to hell, so both 109 and 190 were fighting both oponents all the time.

Also include is an article about the development of the FW-190.

Looks like it is from Winkle Brown's book.

Quite well written. Turn and burn cavalier is more my style so I'm relegated to high altitude now in the Mustang. It's no bad thing because I like being up there, I've got the option of diving on someone if I so wish although I'm a terrible shot so it doesn't always work out well for me.

 

I wonder what your opinion of the spitfire models is regarding turning and burning versus the 109 models.

Thanks. Spitfire definitely beats the 109 in every sustained turn. But i don't know right now which spitfire is coming to Dcs (there were many many different Mk9) so unfortunately i can't tell you a Performance comparison. But it had an insane divespeed (in one test flight it reached 980kph/Mach 0,89 without any harm, glad that i wasn't the pilot). And it had a good to outstanding climb rate, depending on the engine. Bad role though (the non-clipped wing)

Ummm... The Dora (as I read) was made because high alt fighting was not for the Anton versions (too weak at high alt) and so they needed a new engine, so Kurt Tank's crew put the Ju88 engine into the plane, as it was available. I heard that Tank didn't like the idea because he wanted the plane to be Radial (more rugged) but the optimal performance at high alt wasn't achievable with BMW engines. So they went with V12 Jumo engine instead. They had to lenghten the feuselage to compensate for the long nose. It was a compromise, not a real project to "counter" the P-51. More of a improvment to high altitude performance of the Fw190A.

 

The Roll capablity of the plane was present in Anton versions as well and it was already a good diver and had very good high speed handling since first "Butcher birds" arrived.

 

Anton attacked the bomber formations and weren't directly targeting escorts (mostly). That job was for the Bf109 and Fw190D9 as it was at least capable of dealing with them. Anton was just too slow:book:

I suppose Bf109G6/U4 was also in the anti-bomber duty. Later everything went to hell, so both 109 and 190 were fighting both oponents all the time.

Sorry for double post, i am writing with my mobile.

Yes, you just said it mate. Good for high alt. They didn't need such a plane against the P47 or P38. But when the Mustang came their Planes in Service have been outclassed up there. So the Dora went into production (they could have mass produced it earlier). So Yes, it was specific to counter the Mustang.

The rest of your post is right, but when (enough) Doras were available the 109s were used to attack the bombers, as you said with their Rüstsätze (not only the G6 though, also G14/10 and K4, thats the reason for the big cannon, which the Dora hasn't because its not supposed to attack bombers). But often there were no(t enough) Doras available, so Yes, Best 109 models had to keep flying escort as well

Sorry for double post, i am writing with my mobile.

Yes, you just said it mate. Good for high alt. They didn't need such a plane against the P47 or P38. But when the Mustang came their Planes in Service have been outclassed up there.

P-47D has a higher ceiling than the P-51, and it reaches its best TAS considerably higher up than the P-51's best TAS.

The P-51 became the predominant fighter of the 8th AF because it was a flying gas tank, not because it outperformed others. :music_whistling:

Ummm... The Dora (as I read) was made because high alt fighting was not for the Anton versions (too weak at high alt) and so they needed a new engine, so Kurt Tank's crew put the Ju88 engine into the plane, as it was available. I heard that Tank didn't like the idea because he wanted the plane to be Radial (more rugged) but the optimal performance at high alt wasn't achievable with BMW engines. So they went with V12 Jumo engine instead. They had to lenghten the feuselage to compensate for the long nose. It was a compromise, not a real project to "counter" the P-51. More of a improvment to high altitude performance of the Fw190A.

 

The Roll capablity of the plane was present in Anton versions as well and it was already a good diver and had very good high speed handling since first "Butcher birds" arrived.

 

Anton attacked the bomber formations and weren't directly targeting escorts (mostly). That job was for the Bf109 and Fw190D9 as it was at least capable of dealing with them. Anton was just too slow:book:

I suppose Bf109G6/U4 was also in the anti-bomber duty. Later everything went to hell, so both 109 and 190 were fighting both oponents all the time.

The Dora wasnt build with a Jumo because they decided *Hey lets build it with a Jumo* The Dora is like that because not enough of more powerful Fighter engines could be build anymore by BMW (late war Proplems).....and DB already was there for the 109 and had also proplems.

BUT there where many Bomber engines available.:smilewink:

P-47D has a higher ceiling than the P-51, and it reaches its best TAS considerably higher up than the P-51's best TAS.

 

The P-51 became the predominant fighter of the 8th AF because it was a flying gas tank, not because it outperformed others. :music_whistling:

The long range was of course also very important, but the Germans didn't consider the P47 as a plane which needs special attention, the G6 could handle it well, regardless of the highest possible service ceiling. Maximum altitude wasn't too important, the fights did rarely go over 8000m.

P-47D has a higher ceiling than the P-51, and it reaches its best TAS considerably higher up than the P-51's best TAS.

 

The P-51 became the predominant fighter of the 8th AF because it was a flying gas tank, not because it outperformed others. :music_whistling:

...and it didn't outperform others because it was a flying gas tank.:music_whistling:

EDIT: But realy it is better dogfighter anyway.

the P-47 had one huge flaw... it had good performance at its operating altitude of.... 35,000 feet... but down low, where it's massive turbocharger was nothing more than dead weight... well... no need to state the obvious from there...

the corsair used the same engine, but didn't have that problem, because it didn't have the turbo, on the flip side, the corsair had a really crappy altitude ceiling

basically the 109 is a turn fighter that uses its engine as its main source of energy...

the 190 and P51 are energy fighters, and use altitude, momentum, and mass to throw the weight of the plain around, rather than relying on the engine to haul them

the P-47 had one huge flaw... it had good performance at its operating altitude of.... 35,000 feet... but down low, where it's massive turbocharger was nothing more than dead weight... well... no need to state the obvious from there...

 

the corsair used the same engine, but didn't have that problem, because it didn't have the turbo, on the flip side, the corsair had a really crappy altitude ceiling

 

basically the 109 is a turn fighter that uses its engine as its main source of energy...

 

the 190 and P51 are energy fighters, and use altitude, momentum, and mass to throw the weight of the plain around, rather than relying on the engine to haul them

When compared, pretty much. BUT! When you have Spitfire IX the 109 becomes a B&Z as well, as it is nearly impossible for the late 109s to turn with IX. The XIV is a different story alltogether.

All fighters are energy fighters and if you know the energy state of your enemy and your own, you can try all sorts of maneuvers. You can even try to turn with a 109 in P-51. At certain speeds it is quite possible. Only at realy low speed the 109 has edge over the 51.

When compared, pretty much. BUT! When you have Spitfire IX the 109 becomes a B&Z as well, as it is nearly impossible for the late 109s to turn with IX. The XIV is a different story alltogether.

 

All fighters are energy fighters and if you know the energy state of your enemy and your own, you can try all sorts of maneuvers. You can even try to turn with a 109 in P-51. At certain speeds it is quite possible. Only at realy low speed the 109 has edge over the 51.

all planes are energy fighters, but in this case energy fighter refers to planes that suck when hanging on their propeller. the P-51 and 190 suck at hanging on their propeller when compared to a 109 or spit.

and hanging on the propeller means... if the engine suddenly quits, the plane stalls rather than glides.

all planes are energy fighters, but in this case energy fighter refers to planes that suck when hanging on their propeller. the P-51 and 190 suck at hanging on their propeller when compared to a 109 or spit.

 

and hanging on the propeller means... if the engine suddenly quits, the plane stalls rather than glides.

Those are called knife fighters.:smartass:

Energy fighters don't have to be good at hanging on a prop. The P-47 was great energy fighter, B&Z type of plane. The speed it built and kept in dives and zooms were hard to match.

Those are called knife fighters.:smartass:

 

Energy fighters don't have to be good at hanging on a prop. The P-47 was great energy fighter, B&Z type of plane. The speed it built and kept in dives and zooms were hard to match.

yeah the P-47 is my favorite ww2 plane, i think it's awesome to be able to fly a plane by its turbocharger, one of the most unique planes in ww2, in regards to engine operation.

I think you guys should read Bodenplatte by Manrho and Putz. There was lots of low altitude fights between Lw fighters and P47s/P51s.

Two that come to mind are a flight of P-51s that were sitting on the runway with full tanks when the Lw attacked. They took off into the attacking Lw fighters and were quite successful. The other was a P-47 that chased a 109 around the slag heaps and shot it down.

I think you guys should read Bodenplatte by Manrho and Putz. There was lots of low altitude fights between Lw fighters and P47s/P51s.

 

Two that come to mind are a flight of P-51s that were sitting on the runway with full tanks when the Lw attacked. They took off into the attacking Lw fighters and were quite successful. The other was a P-47 that chased a 109 around the slag heaps and shot it down.

don't forget though by 1944 a lot of the veteran lw pilots were on the eastern front in russia trying to stop the russian advance, and after d-day, there was basically nobody left on the western front who had much experience...

most of the time, it's not the plane, but the pilot, and people here are right about the p-51 and p-47 being more important for their fuel capacity than anything else

Us sim pilots, a lot of us have more experience in all be it virtual combat than 10, maybe even 100 of the best pilots in all the wars ever fought in the air combined... it's easy to forget that...

plus... we don't have to worry about dying if we crash or get shot at in a sim...

we are all given the opportunity to learn how these planes could really have been, where a real pilot in the actual plane would be scared to really push his plane, even if he was really experienced...

JG2 and JG26 were stationed in the West for the whole war.

After D-day, units were pulled from the East to help defend the Reich.

The LW had also a very hard decision to develop there Fighters, on low speeds and altitudes manoeuvrable performing soviet fighters against high altitude high Speed US fighters...

But For DCS we Need a heavy Bombers to give a good Scenario for strengthen and weakness of the 109 or 190. currently we fly like on the eastern Front.

Those are called knife fighters.:smartass:

 

Energy fighters don't have to be good at hanging on a prop. The P-47 was great energy fighter, B&Z type of plane. The speed it built and kept in dives and zooms were hard to match.

Right, which is why the German's concluded the FW-190 was an equal or superior dog-fighter to all the Italian types tested.

http://kurfurst.org/Tactical_trials/109G-4_Guidonia/109G-4_vergl_Estelle-Guidonia_de.html

Right, which is why the German's concluded the FW-190 was an equal or superior dog-fighter to all the Italian types tested.

 

http://kurfurst.org/Tactical_trials/109G-4_Guidonia/109G-4_vergl_Estelle-Guidonia_de.html

Which proves what exactly?

Dogfighting doesn't mean turn fighting, get that straight. You can do many maneuvers before you turn. 190 has better visiblity and roll rate than all italian planes and has more firepower (this must be about A version, as D9 was produced well after Italy has surrendered), she also dives better and was probably similar at climb.

I don't think though, that 190 could be able to turn with MC205 in a sustained fight.

190 has an edge at high speed over almost all fighters having very good instantaneous turn rate. But it gets worse with less TAS. A6 version and probably A8 too were reported to be equal to P-51 in turn, while Dora was worse in sustained turn.

But again... what was the point? Late Italian fighters had German engines anyway.

the MC-205 had a db-605 engine like the 109, but wings more similar to the P-51, i guess it's what you could call a 109 sized P-51... i think a A model 190 might be able to out turn a MC205, but probably not a D, since they had to lengthen the tail on the D because of the bigger engine, both of which hurt its turning performance

mind you... lol if you put an mc-205 in this game, it would get eaten alive by everything, it would be the worst performing plane in the game, and people would only fly it for that reason, or because they liked italian planes...

its bigger and heavier than the 109, but uses the same engine...

the mc205 is to the P-47, what the 109 is to the corsair, except that the corsair had bad high altitude performance compared to the 47...

the MC-205 had a db-605 engine like the 109, but wings more similar to the P-51, i guess it's what you could call a 109 sized P-51... i think a A model 190 might be able to out turn a MC205, but probably not a D, since they had to lengthen the tail on the D because of the bigger engine, both of which hurt its turning performance

 

mind you... lol if you put an mc-205 in this game, it would get eaten alive by everything, it would be the worst performing plane in the game, and people would only fly it for that reason, or because they liked italian planes...

 

its bigger and heavier than the 109, but uses the same engine...

 

the mc205 is to the P-47, what the 109 is to the corsair, except that the corsair had bad high altitude performance compared to the 47...

don't forget the the P40 is coming as well (from 3rd Party developer). That plane will really have a bad time, nothing compared to Mc205 which was a very competitive plane to those in game. P40 will be the plane for the tough basterds and over aces :) i only hope that the serious multiplayer mission hosts won't include the bearcat or such crap to the 1944 scenario