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Air to air refueling...


Rhinozherous

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They don't retract automatically, the air force pushes them up.

I don't think so. That's a controlled flap relief system and such systems are usually designed to prevent flap damage by retracting them automatically at defined airspeeds.

 

edit: as the -1 says: The TEF’s are controlled as a function of the LG handle position, the ALT FLAPS switch, airspeed and mach number.


Edited by bbrz

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I do not think neither of this example would be good for the USAF F-16C circa 2007 after CCIP, for conversation sake.

 

Looking around USAF F-16C block 40/42 after CCIP circa 2011

Lading gear down, atl flaps to extend below 400 knot and IFR door open below 400 knot will maintain Takeoff/landing gains. But keep in mind Flaps extended above 240 will start going up and would be fully retracted by 370 knots. This could incur damage to the flaps, flap Integrated Servo Actuator (ISA) or the flap supports. Also IFR door open or in transition close to or above 400 knot can damage the door hydraulic actuator or mechanism.

 

Also, using HAF F-16C block 50 circa 2003 DFLCC as an example will give a bad base to start with. HAF DFLCC has different Cat I and Cat III limits and looks for different parameter to limit Roll and Yaw. It has TFR which USAF F-16C block 50 does not have. It uses different computers for different thing. Central Air Data Computer (CADC), the Pneumatic Sensor Assembly (PSA) are different. Not sure if the Modular Mission Computer (MMC) in USAF have additional functionality on the Flight control compared to the HAF F-16 with General Avionics Computer (GAC). I do not know if HAF F-16C on that time period have a CARA which also sends info to the DFLCC.

 

It does exist in the 16CM-1 which covers the 2007 CCIP Block 50.

 

Thank you for the info.

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I don't think so. That's a controlled flap relief system and such systems are usually designed to prevent flap damage by retracting them automatically at defined airspeeds.

 

edit: as the -1 says: The TEF’s are controlled as a function of the LG handle position, the ALT FLAPS switch, airspeed and mach number.

 

Not being representative of the USAF block 50 circa 2007 DFLCS, but according to the (quite dated) General Dynamic's control block diagram of Cruise Gains, there's only a transonic schedule for the TEF, which is a function of Qc/Ps.

 

How later block DFLCS behaves need to be double checked as the -1 description stays true for the transonic flap schedule.

 

EDIT: There do seems to be a TEF schedule for 240-370kts.

TEF.thumb.jpg.329d3e61166d6572c091c70a11745ad1.jpg


Edited by LJQCN101

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I don't think so. That's a controlled flap relief system and such systems are usually designed to prevent flap damage by retracting them automatically at defined airspeeds.

 

edit: as the -1 says: The TEF’s are controlled as a function of the LG handle position, the ALT FLAPS switch, airspeed and mach number.

 

Not having a 27 Fault Isolation (FI) manual and not being able to post it even if I did make it a moot point on my end. I remember doing flap inspection before but it could be a case of "oldmanitis" where old people remember thing differently. There is no "Flap relief system" in the F-16, at least non that I work on. The only things connected to the Flaperon are the ISA and the transducer. The only things connected to the ISA are the 4 hydraulic line (pressure and return from both hydraulic systems A and B) and cable to the servo valves. They are also the same ISA used on the Horizontal stabs. The rudder is the only ISA that looks different.

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Even on the stone age F-4 one couldn't damage the flaps by leaving them extended (blow back function). I'd be surprised if such damage could occur in a much more modern airplane design.

 

In any case, an interesting item.

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Even on the stone age F-4 one couldn't damage the flaps by leaving them extended (blow back function). I'd be surprised if such damage could occur in a much more modern airplane design.

 

In any case, an interesting item.

 

 

Yea generally most hydraulic control systems like that have a blow-back feature to prevent structural damage in the even of a gross overspeed...but hey I haven't got a F-16 27 Fault Isolation (FI) manual handy right now...

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Hello!

I noticed that the connection point for a2a refueling is quite a distance behind the cockpit... It comes to my mind that the boom operator has a lot to do with aiming that thing in.

 

As I am absolute no a2a expert, I wonder if this circumstance makes refueling the viper in DCS more easy or harder for us?

 

Thank you

 

If you have FC3, go up in the F-15C and refuel. It is just a matter of following lines. It might actually be easier for some people than in the hornet (ei. People who can't stop themselves from looking at the probe and basket rather than points on the tanker).

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In another thread about boom refueling, I asked Sierra99, a former boom operator, if the contact with a boom does stabilize the own speed and position.

 

 

I want an AAR in DCS that is correctly simulated according to his answer:

 

 

 

To some extent yes...more with fighters than heavies but yes. There are cautions and warnings about not maneuvering the receivers with the boom. The Boom Flight Controls are QUITE capable of moving a fighter around which can be a little disconcerting the the receiver pilot. We also have an emergency procedure for "towing fighters" and there are well documented cases of this being done during wartime to get fighters back to a safe landing or ejection site.

 

But in reality both aircraft are just flying formation...connected together. I have pics of a Luke F-16 pilot with both hands up on the rails because he had his plane trimmed out perfect and didn't need to touch anything (In fact he said it was probably safer if he DIDN'T touch the controls...)

 

That being said, one of my favorite tricks was if an f-16 was hanging out at the back of the envelope...I'd put juuuust a little bit of retract pressure on the boom so they would start moving forward in the envelope. They would think they were accelerating so they would pull off a little power and slide back to where they were...so I'd put in a little more retract pressure and pull them forward....and they'd pull off more throttle...

 

Final,y without warning I'd just hit the disconnect switch. Lacking the boom pulling them along they'd drop like a tank!

 

Hope this answers your question.

 

 

In DCS if you have set throttle for half a knot too fast or half a knot too slow, you get out of position and lose contact. Same with pitch. This is not how it works IRL and makes DCS refueling (by boom) way harder than it is IRL.

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In another thread about boom refueling, I asked Sierra99, a former boom operator, if the contact with a boom does stabilize the own speed and position.

 

In DCS if you have set throttle for half a knot too fast or half a knot too slow, you get out of position and lose contact. Same with pitch. This is not how it works IRL and makes DCS refueling (by boom) way harder than it is IRL.

This. I mostly refuel with the basket (Hornet), but I trained a little with the boom yesterday. I can't say that I observed any difference in the behavior of my aircraft with the boom attached or not, which doesn't feel realistic IMO.

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In another thread about boom refueling, I asked Sierra99, a former boom operator, if the contact with a boom does stabilize the own speed and position.

 

 

I want an AAR in DCS that is correctly simulated according to his answer:

 

OMG, this answer is just awesome :megalol:

I want to have a "Boom operator" module :smartass::thumbup:.

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This. I mostly refuel with the basket (Hornet), but I trained a little with the boom yesterday. I can't say that I observed any difference in the behavior of my aircraft with the boom attached or not, which doesn't feel realistic IMO.

 

Yeah, I recently tried out refueling with the F15 to practice a bit. And while I can start transferring fuel there doesn't seem to be any difference if the boom is attached, which seems to make it harder than the basket refulers in some ways.

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OMG, this answer is just awesome :megalol:

I want to have a "Boom operator" module :smartass::thumbup:.

 

This will come after the Carrier module. I'm just not sure how ED will work cows into this.

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This will come after the Carrier module. I'm just not sure how ED will work cows into this.

 

 

Although a boom operator module definitely would be a good thing, I hope they first care about a stabilising connection between tanker and fighter like real life.

 

 

I don't want to wait a year or two after the Viper release because of work on communication protocols or drag or turbulence implementation or... I just want a real connection. Making a contact is not the unrealistic thing. The "contact" witch is none, is the problem.

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Although a boom operator module definitely would be a good thing, I hope they first care about a stabilising connection between tanker and fighter like real life.

 

 

I don't want to wait a year or two after the Viper release because of work on communication protocols or drag or turbulence implementation or... I just want a real connection. Making a contact is not the unrealistic thing. The "contact" witch is none, is the problem.

 

I was largely being facetious. And yes an actual contact would be nice. It currently feels like I'm taking fuel when im in some magic box area that is very easy to pop out of not like I'm attached to a tanker.

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I was largely being facetious. And yes an actual contact would be nice. It currently feels like I'm taking fuel when im in some magic box area that is very easy to pop out of not like I'm attached to a tanker.

 

 

Exactly.

 

 

I hope ED is watching us. I'm afraid nobody cares about the 100th thread about air refuelling.

 

 

Solving that contact issue could be a game changer forever. And the Viper would be a legend for lots of people that have been struggling with AAR so far.

 

 

Plz ED take the chance and make the most realistic AAR by boom.

 

 

 

Thanks

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Given how important AAR is for modern US fighters, I feel that there should be a "easy" mode for those who don't have the time to dedicate to learning how to do it. Simply move into the pre-contact position and press a key to lock in and start taking fuel. It would work similar to U key in Hornet module for getting attached to the catapult.

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Given how important AAR is for modern US fighters, I feel that there should be a "easy" mode for those who don't have the time to dedicate to learning how to do it. Simply move into the pre-contact position and press a key to lock in and start taking fuel. It would work similar to U key in Hornet module for getting attached to the catapult.

 

I don't agree with this, the fun is learning it and it being as close as we can get to real life. If you don't have the time to learn or are having a difficult time then practice, once a day at least like I did, forget about it take a breather and come back to it like I did. Everyone has their own way of learning, what I am getting at is don't give up.

 

There are other sims out there which are easier, I like DCS because it tries to keep everything as close to realistic as possible for a sim. I had trouble with AA refueling at first, the SU-33 helped me get a feel for it and then with the Hornet I finally learned it.

 

I'm not saying I'm an expert and can stay attached the whole time but I can AAR now and it's pretty satisfying to bank away from that tanker with a full fuel load.

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Given how important AAR is for modern US fighters, I feel that there should be a "easy" mode for those who don't have the time to dedicate to learning how to do it. Simply move into the pre-contact position and press a key to lock in and start taking fuel. It would work similar to U key in Hornet module for getting attached to the catapult.

 

 

With a realistic boom AAR in DCS we won't need no easy mode. Caus the hardest thing, which is staying within the zone, a real contact would help a lot like it does IRL.

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Interesting - I specifically asked the question earlier in this thread regarding a boom operator and got a 'yes and yes' response, with no further explanation..

 

Originally Posted by VampireNZ View Post

Haven't use the boom in DCS for years - Does the boom operator in DCS actually fly the boom to the receptacle? Also will it 'latch' into the Viper receptacle and pretty much stay attached until released by the pilot, providing they stay reasonably in position ofc.

 

Shimmergloom667 - Yes and yes

__________

 

I guess it is really a 'no and no' answer....which is indeed a shame.

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Like, what else is there to say? Take an F-15 or A-10, get into a refueling mission and you will see:

 

Once you are properly positioned, the boom operator will move the boom into your plane's refueling receptacle, and it will stay there as long as you stay in place.

 

So: yes and yes.

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Like, what else is there to say? Take an F-15 or A-10, get into a refueling mission and you will see:

 

Once you are properly positioned, the boom operator will move the boom into your plane's refueling receptacle, and it will stay there as long as you stay in place.

 

So: yes and yes.

 

So: Then I am not entirely sure you actually understand the question. A few posts back there is the comment "And yes an actual contact would be nice. It currently feels like I'm taking fuel when im in some magic box area that is very easy to pop out of not like I'm attached to a tanker."

 

So are you physically attached and held in position by the boom or not?

Also I have never seen the boom move sideways into the refuel receptacle in DCS before - i.e. flown by the boom operator as happens fuelling F-16's (fly in with boom off to the side, and it moves over to aircraft receptacle).

 

I guess at this point I will just wait and see for myself when the aircraft actually releases.

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So: Then I am not entirely sure you actually understand the question. A few posts back there is the comment "And yes an actual contact would be nice. It currently feels like I'm taking fuel when im in some magic box area that is very easy to pop out of not like I'm attached to a tanker."

 

So are you physically attached and held in position by the boom or not?

 

 

No, of course not - the boom is flexible and needs to be, alsoit needs to decouple instantly in case of any sort of abrupt moves by both planes, but probably especially by the receiving plane.

 

Plus: the whole process is of course a bit abstracted, since this is not real life. It is not more and not less than: move into the right position as indicated by the tanker's position lights, hold your plane there, the boom operator moves it into the refuelling port and you will take fuel. There is a bit of maneuvering leeway, but move to far and it will decouple.

 

 

Also I have never seen the boom move sideways into the refuel receptacle in DCS before - i.e. flown by the boom operator as happens fuelling F-16's (fly in with boom off to the side, and it moves over to aircraft receptacle).

 

I guess at this point I will just wait and see for myself when the aircraft actually releases.

 

Again: take an F-15 or A-10 now, move in with a bit of lateral distance, but still inside the refueling parameters and the boom operator will connect.

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No, of course not - the boom is flexible and needs to be, alsoit needs to decouple instantly in case of any sort of abrupt moves by both planes, but probably especially by the receiving plane.

 

Plus: the whole process is of course a bit abstracted, since this is not real life. It is not more and not less than: move into the right position as indicated by the tanker's position lights, hold your plane there, the boom operator moves it into the refuelling port and you will take fuel. There is a bit of maneuvering leeway, but move to far and it will decouple.

 

 

 

 

Again: take an F-15 or A-10 now, move in with a bit of lateral distance, but still inside the refueling parameters and the boom operator will connect.

 

 

That's not wrong, but it is only half of the truth. What I miss in this answer and in DCS is the stabilising part of the connection itself. There a procedures to tow a fighter back to safe airspace. You can't do this without a connection that is more than it is now in DCS.

 

 

Imho it is not abstract caus it is not real life, it is abstract caus it is not realistically simulated in DCS yet.

 

 

There would be so much benefit if it was done realistically. And why shouldn't it be done like IRL? AAR and carrier landings are two major challenges with flight sims. Those should not be artificially easier than IRL but certainly they should not be harder just because there are important aspects missing that can be implemented if there was a will to do that.


Edited by Tom Kazansky
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