bbrz Posted September 17, 2019 Share Posted September 17, 2019 (edited) They don't retract automatically, the air force pushes them up. I don't think so. That's a controlled flap relief system and such systems are usually designed to prevent flap damage by retracting them automatically at defined airspeeds. edit: as the -1 says: The TEF’s are controlled as a function of the LG handle position, the ALT FLAPS switch, airspeed and mach number. Edited September 17, 2019 by bbrz i7-7700K 4.2GHz, 16GB, GTX 1070 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
billeinstein Posted September 17, 2019 Share Posted September 17, 2019 I do not think neither of this example would be good for the USAF F-16C circa 2007 after CCIP, for conversation sake. Looking around USAF F-16C block 40/42 after CCIP circa 2011 Lading gear down, atl flaps to extend below 400 knot and IFR door open below 400 knot will maintain Takeoff/landing gains. But keep in mind Flaps extended above 240 will start going up and would be fully retracted by 370 knots. This could incur damage to the flaps, flap Integrated Servo Actuator (ISA) or the flap supports. Also IFR door open or in transition close to or above 400 knot can damage the door hydraulic actuator or mechanism. Also, using HAF F-16C block 50 circa 2003 DFLCC as an example will give a bad base to start with. HAF DFLCC has different Cat I and Cat III limits and looks for different parameter to limit Roll and Yaw. It has TFR which USAF F-16C block 50 does not have. It uses different computers for different thing. Central Air Data Computer (CADC), the Pneumatic Sensor Assembly (PSA) are different. Not sure if the Modular Mission Computer (MMC) in USAF have additional functionality on the Flight control compared to the HAF F-16 with General Avionics Computer (GAC). I do not know if HAF F-16C on that time period have a CARA which also sends info to the DFLCC. It does exist in the 16CM-1 which covers the 2007 CCIP Block 50. Thank you for the info. [sIGPIC][/sIGPIC] Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LJQCN101 Posted September 18, 2019 Share Posted September 18, 2019 (edited) I don't think so. That's a controlled flap relief system and such systems are usually designed to prevent flap damage by retracting them automatically at defined airspeeds. edit: as the -1 says: The TEF’s are controlled as a function of the LG handle position, the ALT FLAPS switch, airspeed and mach number. Not being representative of the USAF block 50 circa 2007 DFLCS, but according to the (quite dated) General Dynamic's control block diagram of Cruise Gains, there's only a transonic schedule for the TEF, which is a function of Qc/Ps. How later block DFLCS behaves need to be double checked as the -1 description stays true for the transonic flap schedule. EDIT: There do seems to be a TEF schedule for 240-370kts. Edited June 13, 2020 by LJQCN101 EFM / FCS developer, Deka Ironwork Simulations. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mvsgas Posted September 18, 2019 Share Posted September 18, 2019 I don't think so. That's a controlled flap relief system and such systems are usually designed to prevent flap damage by retracting them automatically at defined airspeeds. edit: as the -1 says: The TEF’s are controlled as a function of the LG handle position, the ALT FLAPS switch, airspeed and mach number. Not having a 27 Fault Isolation (FI) manual and not being able to post it even if I did make it a moot point on my end. I remember doing flap inspection before but it could be a case of "oldmanitis" where old people remember thing differently. There is no "Flap relief system" in the F-16, at least non that I work on. The only things connected to the Flaperon are the ISA and the transducer. The only things connected to the ISA are the 4 hydraulic line (pressure and return from both hydraulic systems A and B) and cable to the servo valves. They are also the same ISA used on the Horizontal stabs. The rudder is the only ISA that looks different. To whom it may concern, I am an idiot, unfortunately for the world, I have a internet connection and a fondness for beer....apologies for that. Thank you for you patience. Many people don't want the truth, they want constant reassurance that whatever misconception/fallacies they believe in are true.. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bbrz Posted September 18, 2019 Share Posted September 18, 2019 Even on the stone age F-4 one couldn't damage the flaps by leaving them extended (blow back function). I'd be surprised if such damage could occur in a much more modern airplane design. In any case, an interesting item. i7-7700K 4.2GHz, 16GB, GTX 1070 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
VampireNZ Posted September 18, 2019 Share Posted September 18, 2019 Even on the stone age F-4 one couldn't damage the flaps by leaving them extended (blow back function). I'd be surprised if such damage could occur in a much more modern airplane design. In any case, an interesting item. Yea generally most hydraulic control systems like that have a blow-back feature to prevent structural damage in the even of a gross overspeed...but hey I haven't got a F-16 27 Fault Isolation (FI) manual handy right now... Asus Maximus VIII Hero Alpha| i7-6700K @ 4.60GHz | nVidia GTX 1080ti Strix OC 11GB @ 2075MHz| 16GB G.Skill Trident Z RGB 3200Mhz DDR4 CL14 | Samsung 950 PRO 512GB M.2 SSD | Corsair Force LE 480GB SSD | Windows 10 64-Bit | TM Warthog with FSSB R3 Lighting Base | VKB Gunfighter Pro + MCG | TM MFD's | Oculus Rift S | Jetseat FSE [sIGPIC][/sIGPIC] Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kazius Posted September 18, 2019 Share Posted September 18, 2019 Hello! I noticed that the connection point for a2a refueling is quite a distance behind the cockpit... It comes to my mind that the boom operator has a lot to do with aiming that thing in. As I am absolute no a2a expert, I wonder if this circumstance makes refueling the viper in DCS more easy or harder for us? Thank you If you have FC3, go up in the F-15C and refuel. It is just a matter of following lines. It might actually be easier for some people than in the hornet (ei. People who can't stop themselves from looking at the probe and basket rather than points on the tanker). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tom Kazansky Posted September 18, 2019 Share Posted September 18, 2019 In another thread about boom refueling, I asked Sierra99, a former boom operator, if the contact with a boom does stabilize the own speed and position. I want an AAR in DCS that is correctly simulated according to his answer: To some extent yes...more with fighters than heavies but yes. There are cautions and warnings about not maneuvering the receivers with the boom. The Boom Flight Controls are QUITE capable of moving a fighter around which can be a little disconcerting the the receiver pilot. We also have an emergency procedure for "towing fighters" and there are well documented cases of this being done during wartime to get fighters back to a safe landing or ejection site. But in reality both aircraft are just flying formation...connected together. I have pics of a Luke F-16 pilot with both hands up on the rails because he had his plane trimmed out perfect and didn't need to touch anything (In fact he said it was probably safer if he DIDN'T touch the controls...) That being said, one of my favorite tricks was if an f-16 was hanging out at the back of the envelope...I'd put juuuust a little bit of retract pressure on the boom so they would start moving forward in the envelope. They would think they were accelerating so they would pull off a little power and slide back to where they were...so I'd put in a little more retract pressure and pull them forward....and they'd pull off more throttle... Final,y without warning I'd just hit the disconnect switch. Lacking the boom pulling them along they'd drop like a tank! Hope this answers your question. In DCS if you have set throttle for half a knot too fast or half a knot too slow, you get out of position and lose contact. Same with pitch. This is not how it works IRL and makes DCS refueling (by boom) way harder than it is IRL. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Harker Posted September 18, 2019 Share Posted September 18, 2019 In another thread about boom refueling, I asked Sierra99, a former boom operator, if the contact with a boom does stabilize the own speed and position. In DCS if you have set throttle for half a knot too fast or half a knot too slow, you get out of position and lose contact. Same with pitch. This is not how it works IRL and makes DCS refueling (by boom) way harder than it is IRL. This. I mostly refuel with the basket (Hornet), but I trained a little with the boom yesterday. I can't say that I observed any difference in the behavior of my aircraft with the boom attached or not, which doesn't feel realistic IMO. The vCVW-17 is looking for Hornet and Tomcat pilots and RIOs. Join the vCVW-17 Discord. F/A-18C, F-15E, AV-8B, F-16C, JF-17, A-10C/CII, M-2000C, F-14, AH-64D, BS2, UH-1H, P-51D, Sptifire, FC3 - i9-13900K, 64GB @6400MHz RAM, 4090 Strix OC, Samsung 990 Pro Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
viper2097 Posted September 19, 2019 Share Posted September 19, 2019 In another thread about boom refueling, I asked Sierra99, a former boom operator, if the contact with a boom does stabilize the own speed and position. I want an AAR in DCS that is correctly simulated according to his answer: OMG, this answer is just awesome :megalol: I want to have a "Boom operator" module :smartass::thumbup:. Steam user - Youtube I am for quality over quantity in DCS modules Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SmoglessPanic Posted September 19, 2019 Share Posted September 19, 2019 OMG, this answer is just awesome :megalol: I want to have a "Boom operator" module :smartass::thumbup:. Agreed!! I wonder if the pilots eventually figure out that the boom operator is messing with them when they drop like a tank a couple of times...lol...just awesome! :lol: Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Harlikwin Posted September 19, 2019 Share Posted September 19, 2019 This. I mostly refuel with the basket (Hornet), but I trained a little with the boom yesterday. I can't say that I observed any difference in the behavior of my aircraft with the boom attached or not, which doesn't feel realistic IMO. Yeah, I recently tried out refueling with the F15 to practice a bit. And while I can start transferring fuel there doesn't seem to be any difference if the boom is attached, which seems to make it harder than the basket refulers in some ways. New hotness: I7 9700k 4.8ghz, 32gb ddr4, 2080ti, :joystick: TM Warthog. TrackIR, HP Reverb (formermly CV1) Old-N-busted: i7 4720HQ ~3.5GHZ, +32GB DDR3 + Nvidia GTX980m (4GB VRAM) :joystick: TM Warthog. TrackIR, Rift CV1 (yes really). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Harlikwin Posted September 19, 2019 Share Posted September 19, 2019 OMG, this answer is just awesome :megalol: I want to have a "Boom operator" module :smartass::thumbup:. This will come after the Carrier module. I'm just not sure how ED will work cows into this. New hotness: I7 9700k 4.8ghz, 32gb ddr4, 2080ti, :joystick: TM Warthog. TrackIR, HP Reverb (formermly CV1) Old-N-busted: i7 4720HQ ~3.5GHZ, +32GB DDR3 + Nvidia GTX980m (4GB VRAM) :joystick: TM Warthog. TrackIR, Rift CV1 (yes really). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tom Kazansky Posted September 20, 2019 Share Posted September 20, 2019 This will come after the Carrier module. I'm just not sure how ED will work cows into this. Although a boom operator module definitely would be a good thing, I hope they first care about a stabilising connection between tanker and fighter like real life. I don't want to wait a year or two after the Viper release because of work on communication protocols or drag or turbulence implementation or... I just want a real connection. Making a contact is not the unrealistic thing. The "contact" witch is none, is the problem. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Harlikwin Posted September 20, 2019 Share Posted September 20, 2019 Although a boom operator module definitely would be a good thing, I hope they first care about a stabilising connection between tanker and fighter like real life. I don't want to wait a year or two after the Viper release because of work on communication protocols or drag or turbulence implementation or... I just want a real connection. Making a contact is not the unrealistic thing. The "contact" witch is none, is the problem. I was largely being facetious. And yes an actual contact would be nice. It currently feels like I'm taking fuel when im in some magic box area that is very easy to pop out of not like I'm attached to a tanker. New hotness: I7 9700k 4.8ghz, 32gb ddr4, 2080ti, :joystick: TM Warthog. TrackIR, HP Reverb (formermly CV1) Old-N-busted: i7 4720HQ ~3.5GHZ, +32GB DDR3 + Nvidia GTX980m (4GB VRAM) :joystick: TM Warthog. TrackIR, Rift CV1 (yes really). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tom Kazansky Posted September 20, 2019 Share Posted September 20, 2019 I was largely being facetious. And yes an actual contact would be nice. It currently feels like I'm taking fuel when im in some magic box area that is very easy to pop out of not like I'm attached to a tanker. Exactly. I hope ED is watching us. I'm afraid nobody cares about the 100th thread about air refuelling. Solving that contact issue could be a game changer forever. And the Viper would be a legend for lots of people that have been struggling with AAR so far. Plz ED take the chance and make the most realistic AAR by boom. Thanks Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
donkeyrider Posted September 23, 2019 Share Posted September 23, 2019 Given how important AAR is for modern US fighters, I feel that there should be a "easy" mode for those who don't have the time to dedicate to learning how to do it. Simply move into the pre-contact position and press a key to lock in and start taking fuel. It would work similar to U key in Hornet module for getting attached to the catapult. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SmoglessPanic Posted September 23, 2019 Share Posted September 23, 2019 Given how important AAR is for modern US fighters, I feel that there should be a "easy" mode for those who don't have the time to dedicate to learning how to do it. Simply move into the pre-contact position and press a key to lock in and start taking fuel. It would work similar to U key in Hornet module for getting attached to the catapult. I don't agree with this, the fun is learning it and it being as close as we can get to real life. If you don't have the time to learn or are having a difficult time then practice, once a day at least like I did, forget about it take a breather and come back to it like I did. Everyone has their own way of learning, what I am getting at is don't give up. There are other sims out there which are easier, I like DCS because it tries to keep everything as close to realistic as possible for a sim. I had trouble with AA refueling at first, the SU-33 helped me get a feel for it and then with the Hornet I finally learned it. I'm not saying I'm an expert and can stay attached the whole time but I can AAR now and it's pretty satisfying to bank away from that tanker with a full fuel load. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tom Kazansky Posted September 23, 2019 Share Posted September 23, 2019 Given how important AAR is for modern US fighters, I feel that there should be a "easy" mode for those who don't have the time to dedicate to learning how to do it. Simply move into the pre-contact position and press a key to lock in and start taking fuel. It would work similar to U key in Hornet module for getting attached to the catapult. With a realistic boom AAR in DCS we won't need no easy mode. Caus the hardest thing, which is staying within the zone, a real contact would help a lot like it does IRL. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
VampireNZ Posted September 23, 2019 Share Posted September 23, 2019 Interesting - I specifically asked the question earlier in this thread regarding a boom operator and got a 'yes and yes' response, with no further explanation.. Originally Posted by VampireNZ View Post Haven't use the boom in DCS for years - Does the boom operator in DCS actually fly the boom to the receptacle? Also will it 'latch' into the Viper receptacle and pretty much stay attached until released by the pilot, providing they stay reasonably in position ofc. Shimmergloom667 - Yes and yes __________ I guess it is really a 'no and no' answer....which is indeed a shame. Asus Maximus VIII Hero Alpha| i7-6700K @ 4.60GHz | nVidia GTX 1080ti Strix OC 11GB @ 2075MHz| 16GB G.Skill Trident Z RGB 3200Mhz DDR4 CL14 | Samsung 950 PRO 512GB M.2 SSD | Corsair Force LE 480GB SSD | Windows 10 64-Bit | TM Warthog with FSSB R3 Lighting Base | VKB Gunfighter Pro + MCG | TM MFD's | Oculus Rift S | Jetseat FSE [sIGPIC][/sIGPIC] Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Shimmergloom667 Posted September 23, 2019 Share Posted September 23, 2019 Like, what else is there to say? Take an F-15 or A-10, get into a refueling mission and you will see: Once you are properly positioned, the boom operator will move the boom into your plane's refueling receptacle, and it will stay there as long as you stay in place. So: yes and yes. i7 - 9700K | 32 GB DDR4 3200 | RTX 2080 | VKB Gunfighter Mk II /w MCG Pro | Virpil T-50CM2 Throttle | TrackIR 5 | VKB Mk. IV AJS-37 | A/V-8B | A-10C | F-14A/B | F-16C | F-18C | F-86F | FC3 | JF-17 | Ka-50 | L-39 | Mi-8 | MiG-15bis | MiG-19 | MiG-21bis | M2000-C | P-51D | Spitfire LF Mk. IX | UH-1H Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
VampireNZ Posted September 24, 2019 Share Posted September 24, 2019 Like, what else is there to say? Take an F-15 or A-10, get into a refueling mission and you will see: Once you are properly positioned, the boom operator will move the boom into your plane's refueling receptacle, and it will stay there as long as you stay in place. So: yes and yes. So: Then I am not entirely sure you actually understand the question. A few posts back there is the comment "And yes an actual contact would be nice. It currently feels like I'm taking fuel when im in some magic box area that is very easy to pop out of not like I'm attached to a tanker." So are you physically attached and held in position by the boom or not? Also I have never seen the boom move sideways into the refuel receptacle in DCS before - i.e. flown by the boom operator as happens fuelling F-16's (fly in with boom off to the side, and it moves over to aircraft receptacle). I guess at this point I will just wait and see for myself when the aircraft actually releases. Asus Maximus VIII Hero Alpha| i7-6700K @ 4.60GHz | nVidia GTX 1080ti Strix OC 11GB @ 2075MHz| 16GB G.Skill Trident Z RGB 3200Mhz DDR4 CL14 | Samsung 950 PRO 512GB M.2 SSD | Corsair Force LE 480GB SSD | Windows 10 64-Bit | TM Warthog with FSSB R3 Lighting Base | VKB Gunfighter Pro + MCG | TM MFD's | Oculus Rift S | Jetseat FSE [sIGPIC][/sIGPIC] Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Shimmergloom667 Posted September 24, 2019 Share Posted September 24, 2019 So: Then I am not entirely sure you actually understand the question. A few posts back there is the comment "And yes an actual contact would be nice. It currently feels like I'm taking fuel when im in some magic box area that is very easy to pop out of not like I'm attached to a tanker." So are you physically attached and held in position by the boom or not? No, of course not - the boom is flexible and needs to be, alsoit needs to decouple instantly in case of any sort of abrupt moves by both planes, but probably especially by the receiving plane. Plus: the whole process is of course a bit abstracted, since this is not real life. It is not more and not less than: move into the right position as indicated by the tanker's position lights, hold your plane there, the boom operator moves it into the refuelling port and you will take fuel. There is a bit of maneuvering leeway, but move to far and it will decouple. Also I have never seen the boom move sideways into the refuel receptacle in DCS before - i.e. flown by the boom operator as happens fuelling F-16's (fly in with boom off to the side, and it moves over to aircraft receptacle). I guess at this point I will just wait and see for myself when the aircraft actually releases. Again: take an F-15 or A-10 now, move in with a bit of lateral distance, but still inside the refueling parameters and the boom operator will connect. i7 - 9700K | 32 GB DDR4 3200 | RTX 2080 | VKB Gunfighter Mk II /w MCG Pro | Virpil T-50CM2 Throttle | TrackIR 5 | VKB Mk. IV AJS-37 | A/V-8B | A-10C | F-14A/B | F-16C | F-18C | F-86F | FC3 | JF-17 | Ka-50 | L-39 | Mi-8 | MiG-15bis | MiG-19 | MiG-21bis | M2000-C | P-51D | Spitfire LF Mk. IX | UH-1H Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tom Kazansky Posted September 24, 2019 Share Posted September 24, 2019 (edited) No, of course not - the boom is flexible and needs to be, alsoit needs to decouple instantly in case of any sort of abrupt moves by both planes, but probably especially by the receiving plane. Plus: the whole process is of course a bit abstracted, since this is not real life. It is not more and not less than: move into the right position as indicated by the tanker's position lights, hold your plane there, the boom operator moves it into the refuelling port and you will take fuel. There is a bit of maneuvering leeway, but move to far and it will decouple. Again: take an F-15 or A-10 now, move in with a bit of lateral distance, but still inside the refueling parameters and the boom operator will connect. That's not wrong, but it is only half of the truth. What I miss in this answer and in DCS is the stabilising part of the connection itself. There a procedures to tow a fighter back to safe airspace. You can't do this without a connection that is more than it is now in DCS. Imho it is not abstract caus it is not real life, it is abstract caus it is not realistically simulated in DCS yet. There would be so much benefit if it was done realistically. And why shouldn't it be done like IRL? AAR and carrier landings are two major challenges with flight sims. Those should not be artificially easier than IRL but certainly they should not be harder just because there are important aspects missing that can be implemented if there was a will to do that. Edited September 24, 2019 by Tom Kazansky Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
smire666 Posted September 24, 2019 Share Posted September 24, 2019 Tom, +1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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