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Su-27 vs F-15C


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With missiles involved, going for any other tactic but pointing your nose on the bandit as fast as possible is gamble with bad odds. You can pull it off but most of the time you don't. In gunzo energy tactics and setting up nose high merges is very important but it's only possible because it's not almost certain death if the bandit gets his nose pointed at you.

DCS Finland: Suomalainen DCS yhteisö -- Finnish DCS community

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Haha thx for the referral JunMcKill :):)

 

Here's something you probably won't read from any guide... I know I haven't... and it's so simple it's almost dumb:

 

I firmly believe that as long as you have control over your airspeed at the merge, and there is no significant separation between the fighters at merge, the single best move at merge is almost always to pull straight up into the vertical, unless going for energy tactics (which is viable only in a guns fight anyway).

 

I believe all those dogfighting guides recommending things like slice turns or horizontal ones or whatever, are wrong and anyone attempting a horizontal move against a well executed vertical one will be instantly disadvantaged in angles :) This applies to pretty much any fighter aircraft.

 

Now if someone disagrees with this and wants to prove me wrong... send me pm, we can fly, record on tacview and post here how things really are ;)

 

Interesting. How does it fare, or how would you adjust the tactic, to cope with an opponent who has a slightly smaller vertical loop radius?

System Spec: Cooler Master Cosmos C700P Black Edition case. | AMD 5950X CPU | MSI RTX-3090 GPU | 32GB HyperX Predator PC4000 RAM | | TM Warthog stick & throttle | TrackIR 5 | Samsung 980 Pro NVMe 4 SSD 1TB (boot) | Samsung 870 QVO SSD 4TB (games) | Windows 10 Pro 64-bit.

 

Personal wish list: DCS: Su-27SM & DCS: Avro Vulcan.

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With missiles involved, going for any other tactic but pointing your nose on the bandit as fast as possible is gamble with bad odds. You can pull it off but most of the time you don't. In gunzo energy tactics and setting up nose high merges is very important but it's only possible because it's not almost certain death if the bandit gets his nose pointed at you.

 

 

You can Rmin the missile and get below them if you don't get too greedy with your oblique angle. Look at the first fight of Stuge vs Teknetinium in the last topgun tournament to see what I mean.

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Higgeh coming from you I appreciate the comments since youve been one of my worthiest opponents in recent years ;)

 

500 kts is a rough estimation that works most of the time and gives you better follow up energy than a lower speed. I sometimes use even 520 kts. Lower speed gives a better radius but also exposes to gunfire. Higher speed allows for better head on jink, this affects the overall equation of probabilies :)

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Interesting. How does it fare, or how would you adjust the tactic, to cope with an opponent who has a slightly smaller vertical loop radius?

 

In case of eagle vs flanker where flanker has potentially smaller radius you do your best and hope he doesn't kill you within 180 degrees of turn with R73. In fact this is the best time to kill a sloppy flanker pilot by pulling a smaller radius turn yourself! It is also a good idea to try to gun the flanker head-on after 180 degrees, since Eagle is a better gun platform currently. After 180 degrees you hope that the flanker is heavy, or unskilled, otherwise you are in trouble ;)


Edited by Stuge
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Higgeh coming from you I appreciate the comments since youve been one of my worthiest opponents in recent years ;)

 

500 kts is a rough estimation that works most of the time and gives you better follow up energy than a lower speed. I sometimes use even 520 kts. Lower speed gives a better radius but also exposes to gunfire. Higher speed allows for better head on jink, this affects the overall equation of probabilies :)

 

I try my best :)

 

Congrats on winning topgun btw. I watched some of the acmis and was thinking "He knows too much" lol

 

 

I totally forgot about the head on jink on the first pass. Always fly where that is prohibited so that makes total sense.

 

Would still be tempting to perform a rather disrespectful lead turn for a fun 5 second fight. I just love the sheer panic for both pilots when they enter a relative speed fight at higher speeds. Sure it has a 10% success rate but that's not important :P

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Blaze I never said it's super easy to pull off :) But it's the best move when done correctly. It gives you first shot with heatseeker, and good energy to continue if the heatseeker misses etc.

 

Few pointers:

-starting speed so that you almost black out when pulling up at max performance (stick pulled fully to the balls, about 500 kts for Eagle.)

-once you're past 1/4 of the loop, lift vector goes exactly on the bandit

 

A corner speed loving horizontal turning opponent will be destroyed within 10 seconds of the merge...

 

 

While in this game your tactics work. I'm not arguing this at all.

 

How ever, from my Cousin an Ex F15c pilot,

 

Last bit of the textmsg

 

 

"end the fight quicker and can

look for his wingman. That and I

haven't even started talking

about weapons"

image1.thumb.PNG.f28939d59ee0cac9cbfdc259bc30cd23.PNG

For the WIN

[sIGPIC][/sIGPIC]

If your desired effect on the target is making the pilot defecate his pants laughing then you can definitely achieve it with a launch like that.
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I try my best :)

 

Congrats on winning topgun btw. I watched some of the acmis and was thinking "He knows too much" lol

 

 

I totally forgot about the head on jink on the first pass. Always fly where that is prohibited so that makes total sense.

 

Would still be tempting to perform a rather disrespectful lead turn for a fun 5 second fight. I just love the sheer panic for both pilots when they enter a relative speed fight at higher speeds. Sure it has a 10% success rate but that's not important :P

 

Thanks and not exactly sure what you mean in the last part but it sure sounds fun :D How can a lead turn be disrespectful! :D:D:D

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While in this game your tactics work. I'm not arguing this at all.

 

How ever, from my Cousin an Ex F15c pilot,

 

Last bit of the textmsg

 

 

"end the fight quicker and can

look for his wingman. That and I

haven't even started talking

about weapons"

 

Very interesting!

 

Actually, part of the reason I think vertical is better is that for vertical you need, compared to horizontal, a faster initial airspeed, thus also having higher specific energy / total energy / whatever you want to call it (airspeed + altitude)

 

So the vertical opening would actually be an energy conserving move, not an energy expending one.

 

Regardless, I would gladly challenge your F-15-flying cousin to show that conserving energy is a good idea.. I strongly believe it is not, due to the deadliness of both the AIM-9M and the 20mm gun in high aspect encounters, meaning that angles is everything and energy is less important.

 

Now I am talking about same aircraft vs same aircraft cases.

 

Having different aircraft with different weapons makes for a much more complex scenario. When facing a superior opponent it is of course smart to keep and use any escape window you can in case you lose your advantage.


Edited by Stuge
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In case of eagle vs flanker where flanker has potentially smaller radius you do your best and hope he doesn't kill you within 180 degrees of turn with R73. In fact this is the best time to kill a sloppy flanker pilot by pulling a smaller radius turn yourself! It is also a good idea to try to gun the flanker head-on after 180 degrees, since Eagle is a better gun platform currently. After 180 degrees you hope that the flanker is heavy, or unskilled, otherwise you are in trouble ;)

 

That makes sense. With regards to a heavy Flanker - one of the abilities of the Eagle that I very much admire is the ability to drop tanks, i.e. to ditch a pile of weight at the start of an engagement. While the Flanker has a very useful huge fuel capacity it's all weight that you're stuck with, meaning that a skilled Flanker driver has to plan 3-4 'moves' ahead in terms of fuel load vs. expected range to engagement etc.

 

It's also the case that in the Flanker, when you get below ~50% fuel with only ~4-6 missiles remaining, your all-up weight is finally roughly in the region of 21,500Kg which is what the current G limits appear to be calibrated for. End effect: less concern about over-stressing and destroying your airframe.

 

An Eagle at pretty much any weight will have a significant acceleration & climb advantage over the Flanker, so from my perspective even if I'm <50% fuel a vertical turning fight is dangerous. I'd want to try to enter with near or maybe just above corner velocity so as to maximise my nose authority for an R-73 shot, but if the Eagle pilot anticipates this and pumps flares during the first 180 degrees... Dangerous position for the Flanker driver to be in: unless one observes strict energy management discipline it would be very easy to find oneself at the top of a loop with dangerously low airspeed and an Eagle that's rapidly gaining energy on the way down. This scenario might be one of the very few tactical situations where I'd actually be tempted to use direct control mode to help get the nose down for an off-axis R-73 or potential cannon shot.

 

Very interesting discussion. :thumbup:

System Spec: Cooler Master Cosmos C700P Black Edition case. | AMD 5950X CPU | MSI RTX-3090 GPU | 32GB HyperX Predator PC4000 RAM | | TM Warthog stick & throttle | TrackIR 5 | Samsung 980 Pro NVMe 4 SSD 1TB (boot) | Samsung 870 QVO SSD 4TB (games) | Windows 10 Pro 64-bit.

 

Personal wish list: DCS: Su-27SM & DCS: Avro Vulcan.

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It's also the case that in the Flanker, when you get below ~50% fuel with only ~4-6 missiles remaining, your all-up weight is finally roughly in the region of 21,500Kg which is what the current G limits appear to be calibrated for. End effect: less concern about over-stressing and destroying your airframe.

The overstress risk depends a lot on speed. High speeds mean high risk. Max speed BVR maneuvering is most dangerous, you have to be aware of what you're doing, making smooth inputs and avoiding fast rolls + high G. In a turn fight there is rarely need to go faster than 800 km/h (except the energy fight I mentioned). At <800 km/h you can turn pretty confidently already.

 

At <600 km/h you can do pretty much anything without risk of breakage, including using that direct control for maximum nose authority and that minimum radius! In fact what many people don't realize is that if you don't use direct control in low speed one circle fights, ESPECIALLY FLAT SCISSORS, the Eagle will actually beat the Flanker in minimizing radius!!! Alternatively you could maybe use the wheel brake button to tighten your turn I guess but I find it inferior to direct control so I never use it.

 

Direct control is also beyond awesome when you find yourself on top of a loop at slow speed (<400 km/h). You can use it to quickly swing your nose down and gain lots of angles with minimal energy loss... otherwise your nose has a tendency to resist coming down, the computer controlled system performs poorly here.

 

An Eagle at pretty much any weight will have a significant acceleration & climb advantage over the Flanker, so from my perspective even if I'm <50% fuel a vertical turning fight is dangerous. I'd want to try to enter with near or maybe just above corner velocity so as to maximise my nose authority for an R-73 shot, but if the Eagle pilot anticipates this and pumps flares during the first 180 degrees... Dangerous position for the Flanker driver to be in: unless one observes strict energy management discipline it would be very easy to find oneself at the top of a loop with dangerously low airspeed and an Eagle that's rapidly gaining energy on the way down. This scenario might be one of the very few tactical situations where I'd actually be tempted to use direct control mode to help get the nose down for an off-axis R-73 or potential cannon shot.

 

Very interesting discussion. :thumbup:

 

The Eagle indeed has a significant thrust-to-weight advantage over the Flanker. However, your reasoning that the Flanker must perform worse in vertical turning is...false :) This is because:

 

-Flanker may accelerate less, but it also bleeds less speed in turns, probably has to do with the aerodynamic design of the thing..

 

-Flanker is also less speed sensitive than Eagle, it performs best anywhere within 600-800 km/h, and suffers less from lower speeds, thus having maximum performance in a very large portion of the vertical loop, while the Eagle does not like variable speeds and instead prefers the exact corner speed, making it more efficient in the horizontal where this corner speed can be maintained.

 

When flying a <50% fuel Flanker I am absolutely confident in following an Eagle into any maneuver whatsoever, knowing that my beloved Flanker will match or exceed the Eagle's turn performance. The only exception to this is a low altitude sustained two circle fight against a very light(running on fumes) Eagle.. here problems can arise when Eagle becomes more of a missile in itself than an aircraft with ridiculous thrust to weight and consequentially ridiculous sustained turn rate exceeding 20 degrees per second, outperforming the Flanker :D

 

About the merge again... your reasonings are correct! The Flanker pilot can start at a slower airspeed, let's say 600-700 km/h, and use direct control at an early point in the loop to guarantee first shot with R-73. However, should this attack fail the Flanker will be left floundering very slow, and the Eagle may come around screaming with guns. This could be avoided by the Flanker pilot by starting the pull up from a faster speed, matching the Eagle's performance, while going slightly oblique to try avoid weapons at the second merge at the top of the loop. This is the most dangerous part for the Flanker. After the second merge at the top of the loop the Eagle will be slow and after that the Flanker can dominate and win the fight. R-73 guarantees that Eagle cannot run away anymore :)


Edited by Stuge
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You can Rmin the missile and get below them if you don't get too greedy with your oblique angle. Look at the first fight of Stuge vs Teknetinium in the last topgun tournament to see what I mean.

 

What I see is that Tek went for energy and Stuge didn't roll for lead when nose up and hence didn't get/take the opportunity to shoot that he could have had.

 

In DCS you can relatively easily shoot missiles with high Pk from one circle flow as long as you lead the target properly. With good lead for the missile, Rmin is much less than advertised (even more so for the R-73). Other thing is that if the bandit comes to the merge little faster (like 500 kts) and then makes a max performance turn the resulting turn looks more like a hook than a semi-circle which creates enough separation to deny attempt to min range a missile. Getting inside Rmin is possible but I haven't figured out a reliable way to force it but it always requires co-operation from the bandit.

DCS Finland: Suomalainen DCS yhteisö -- Finnish DCS community

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SF Squadron

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What I see is that Tek went for energy and Stuge didn't roll for lead when nose up and hence didn't get/take the opportunity to shoot that he could have had.

You can see that in this fight I purposely went oblique to prevent being shot in the face. Trying to lead for a shot would have exposed myself to a shot also, thus I just took a pot shot without aiming :)

 

But this was before Flanker had breaking wings, now the dynamics are different...

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Shooting at max range gives a important thing away that can bring you in a disadvantage. You show your opponent that you are not confident. That you try to make him scared so you hope he reacts on that early (at least in DCS). You gave away your intention early so he has longer time to think about what his next move should be. Better to wait with that warning shot till you are a bit closer so he has no choice to react. Even that it's still a low Pk shot. It's hard to find that fine line fighting against a AIM-120C platform. But with flying in a two ship you can actually turn this into a advantage.

 

Well ive managed to scare one from 20nm, He instantly turned by which point my wingman was on it the rest is history, However firing early does not always work :)

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At <600 km/h you can do pretty much anything without risk of breakage, including using that direct control for maximum nose authority and that minimum radius! In fact what many people don't realize is that if you don't use direct control in low speed one circle fights, ESPECIALLY FLAT SCISSORS, the Eagle will actually beat the Flanker in minimizing radius!!! Alternatively you could maybe use the wheel brake button to tighten your turn I guess but I find it inferior to direct control so I never use it.

 

Ah, apologies, I didn't know you're a Flanker fan :) I thought I was discussing with an Eagle driver. I didn't know about the minimum radius thing - I need to fly the Eagle more to learn it better.

 

About the merge again... your reasonings are correct! The Flanker pilot can start at a slower airspeed, let's say 600-700 km/h, and use direct control at an early point in the loop to guarantee first shot with R-73. However, should this attack fail the Flanker will be left floundering very slow, and the Eagle may come around screaming with guns. This could be avoided by the Flanker pilot by starting the pull up from a faster speed, matching the Eagle's performance, while going slightly oblique to try avoid weapons at the second merge at the top of the loop. This is the most dangerous part for the Flanker. After the second merge at the top of the loop the Eagle will be slow and after that the Flanker can dominate and win the fight. R-73 guarantees that Eagle cannot run away anymore

 

I'd never considered a slightly oblique pull up before to avoid a guns shot, but it's obvious when I think about it: why expose yourself to the risk of a guns shot when you can make best use of the off-axis abilities of the R-73? Oblique pull up. That's an amazing idea! Thanks for the tip! :idea:

System Spec: Cooler Master Cosmos C700P Black Edition case. | AMD 5950X CPU | MSI RTX-3090 GPU | 32GB HyperX Predator PC4000 RAM | | TM Warthog stick & throttle | TrackIR 5 | Samsung 980 Pro NVMe 4 SSD 1TB (boot) | Samsung 870 QVO SSD 4TB (games) | Windows 10 Pro 64-bit.

 

Personal wish list: DCS: Su-27SM & DCS: Avro Vulcan.

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Ah, apologies, I didn't know you're a Flanker fan :) I thought I was discussing with an Eagle driver. I didn't know about the minimum radius thing - I need to fly the Eagle more to learn it better.

 

 

 

I'd never considered a slightly oblique pull up before to avoid a guns shot, but it's obvious when I think about it: why expose yourself to the risk of a guns shot when you can make best use of the off-axis abilities of the R-73? Oblique pull up. That's an amazing idea! Thanks for the tip! :idea:

 

Yeah, you can also change a straight pull up into an oblique one at any moment if you see the bandit is going to threaten you with weapons..

 

What's really nice about this is that if you survive this second merge and do a second pull-up from slow speed! Most people can not counter this well (they should follow you up) but instead either directly dive down for speed or stay horizontal at a low airspeed. Once you come over the top, on the verge of stalling, by using your roll control you can choose which direction your nose will fall, swing the nose down and take the kill shot at the bandit down below who is still gathering airspeed! This technique is extremely powerful with Flanker's direct control which allows surprisingly good control at even almost zero airspeeds, with some practice of course ;)

 

And oh yea I love to fly both Eagle and Flanker. They both have great personalities :):)


Edited by Stuge
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What I see is that Tek went for energy and Stuge didn't roll for lead when nose up and hence didn't get/take the opportunity to shoot that he could have had.

 

In DCS you can relatively easily shoot missiles with high Pk from one circle flow as long as you lead the target properly. With good lead for the missile, Rmin is much less than advertised (even more so for the R-73). Other thing is that if the bandit comes to the merge little faster (like 500 kts) and then makes a max performance turn the resulting turn looks more like a hook than a semi-circle which creates enough separation to deny attempt to min range a missile. Getting inside Rmin is possible but I haven't figured out a reliable way to force it but it always requires co-operation from the bandit.

 

I do actually agree with what you are saying, but I'm not so sure about there being enough separation between the turn circles to pull this lead if both pilots lead turn and max perform their jet.

 

If they come in at 500kts then I would aggressively lead turn them. A high instantaneous rate allows me to perform a lead turn later, so if they don't have instant access to this then I can start an early turn quite late prior to the pass where I will gain angles without giving away a lot of turning room.

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I do actually agree with what you are saying, but I'm not so sure about there being enough separation between the turn circles to pull this lead if both pilots lead turn and max perform their jet.

 

If they come in at 500kts then I would aggressively lead turn them. A high instantaneous rate allows me to perform a lead turn later, so if they don't have instant access to this then I can start an early turn quite late prior to the pass where I will gain angles without giving away a lot of turning room.

 

I was experimenting with lead turns and managed to find parameters where I get inside the faster bandits turn circle to stay safe but never managed to get so close that I couldn't use missiles. As long as you can get your nose in front of the bandits flight path and get a lock on the bandit, you can shoot a missile that will hit if you time it right. Lead turn also opens more possible tactical options for both planes that I haven't explored yet so I'm not sure what to think about lead turning yet. Nevertheless the lead turn starting distance is long to get the desired result and hence I'm yet unsure if it works in any other setting than no shooting until merged.

 

You need to lead turn early because bandit bleeds his speed during this turn and his turn radius gets smaller towards the end of the turn. This moves his final turn circle away from the merge that you compensate by starting your own turn earlier. While high instantaneous turn rate always helps to bring you closer in 1C fight, it's the bandits turn performance that mostly dictates the lead turn timing if you want to get inside the bandits turn circle, not your own. Other thing is that bandits fuel weight affects his turn radius and speed bleed which must be factored in the lead turn timing. I haven't tested yet how much impact weight has but I'd suspect it's going to be a factor. Nevertheless, thanks for a good tip.

DCS Finland: Suomalainen DCS yhteisö -- Finnish DCS community

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Well ive managed to scare one from 20nm, He instantly turned by which point my wingman was on it the rest is history, However firing early does not always work

 

Obviously there isn't a tactic that always works but with educated guesses you can figure out what could work best. When fighting good opponents it's always about being unpredictable.

 

I remember in one of the JW's last year I was left alone to defend our only A-10 to complete our A2G mission when I had about 6-7k fuel left about 100 nm off the base and no missiles while the other guy was stacked with missiles. Somehow I baited him into going defensive then chasing me after the recommit into another defense and then me chasing him back at which point our striker was done. Poor bandit ended up crashing into the mountain because he ran out of fuel and we all RTB'd safe. Bottom line is just like in poker, a good bluff is as good as a royal flush. Your move doesn't have to be legit or good, all it has to do is work at a given time. Only an experienced fox can be the judge of that :)

 

I'd never considered a slightly oblique pull up before to avoid a guns shot, but it's obvious when I think about it: why expose yourself to the risk of a guns shot when you can make best use of the off-axis abilities of the R-73? Oblique pull up. That's an amazing idea! Thanks for the tip!

 

Oblique turns are pretty common in any merge where you're equal and could potentially both get a shot so instead of taking the gamble you prepare for a longer energy fight. But this is not usually something you plan for straight away, but rather adjust for depending on how the fight develops. The tricky part is not giving up too much angles to do the turn right and deny his shot, because if you do, then you might aswell give it up to him.


Edited by <Blaze>
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Oblique turns are pretty common in any merge where you're equal and could potentially both get a shot so instead of taking the gamble you prepare for a longer energy fight. But this is not usually something you plan for straight away' date=' but rather adjust for depending on how the fight develops. The tricky part is not giving up too much angles to do the turn right and deny his shot, because if you do, then you might aswell give it up to him.[/quote']

 

That makes sense. I wonder though if the bandit has the same idea, whether two oblique turns has the potential to turn in to a rolling scissors. Maybe that's a valid option for an Eagle driver who could then make use of their superior roll rate?

System Spec: Cooler Master Cosmos C700P Black Edition case. | AMD 5950X CPU | MSI RTX-3090 GPU | 32GB HyperX Predator PC4000 RAM | | TM Warthog stick & throttle | TrackIR 5 | Samsung 980 Pro NVMe 4 SSD 1TB (boot) | Samsung 870 QVO SSD 4TB (games) | Windows 10 Pro 64-bit.

 

Personal wish list: DCS: Su-27SM & DCS: Avro Vulcan.

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That makes sense. I wonder though if the bandit has the same idea, whether two oblique turns has the potential to turn in to a rolling scissors. Maybe that's a valid option for an Eagle driver who could then make use of their superior roll rate?

 

I think so, but my BFM imagining skills are a bit shady after over half a year of not flying. :D It probably depends on airspeeds and the setup of the 2nd merge.

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That makes sense. I wonder though if the bandit has the same idea, whether two oblique turns has the potential to turn in to a rolling scissors. Maybe that's a valid option for an Eagle driver who could then make use of their superior roll rate?

 

Flanker is better at rolling scissors, Eagle's crazy roll doesn't save it ;)

 

The two oblique turns are likely to develop into a descending spiral, ending up in a two-circle fight on the deck. Whoever makes a better deck transition (reaching optimal airspeed by the time there's no room to descend anymore) will gain advantage.

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