Flight model thoughts

A purely pressure based VSI is going to have a lot of lag, sometimes exceeding 5 seconds, it's possible the DCS one doesn't have enough or that they modeled a different unit.

As for the pitching moment with flaps https://forums.eagle.ru/showthread.php?t=167394

And, tweaking the pitch, roll and yaw controller curves I use with my TS16000 and Saitek Combat Rudder Pro made a whole lot of a difference...

The DCS Spitfire IX handles in such an harmonious way, that I have almost forgotten that rudder forces aren't yet being modelled - but they'll arrive with one of the upcoming updates for sure as Yo-Yo mentioned already.

Regarding the landing bounce, I agree the Spitfire still bounces probably a bit too much for my liking...

Spit may need few tweak perhaps?

Yes, or then again, perhaps not, since perhaps is indeed the key word here. And so it will remain, unless clear, unequivocal and tangible evidence supporting said changes is presented.

NB: I don't want to pish on anyone's parade here, nor do I claim that no tweaking whatsoever is in order. But one still needs evidence supporting the changes desired, or they most likely won't happen.

a bit too much for my liking

See above.

Further to my last post, the "feet dancing" on takeoff and landing, is very noticeable in this video:

It's pretty much what I find myself doing in the DCS IX model :-)

I understand what you mean. I originally had the Spit setup like that too. What bugged me was that you don't share the in-cockpit brake-lever, you fight over it. If you press for example the left toe-brake full and 'accidentally' just touch the right toe-brake, the the right, being the last input, wins and suddenly your brakes are off, until you release the left toe-brake in which case it jumps back up to nearly full and then falls back to none.

 

Many times while trying to get round corners or getting lined up on the runway, I was losing control of the AC because the toe-brakes were fighting with each other, especially when switching between them.

 

Having learned to use the brakes on the P-51, it was just too difficult to re-learn never touching both toe-brakes at the same time, and so I went with the next best thing.

 

The really nice thing about using the RPM-throttle to brake, is how much fidelity I suddenly had in applying the brakes. I could apply just 10 or 15% brakes and use the rudder pedals to steer the exact curve around the corner or onto the runway center.

 

Of course I'd love to have a bicycle-brake-lever like on the real Spitfire attached to my joystick, and maybe one day I'll build one with just that, a bicycle-brake-lever cabled to a hall sensor and controller :D

I never realized I was only getting 50% braking with the toe brake setup. I am not sure I need more but I certainly need to mess with that concept and try a few things. Thanks guys.

On a side note, are there any guides on curves and saturation that any of you would suggest? I too have problems with consistency flying the Spitfire, and I wish to fine tune my controls to make flights smoother.

A few people went ape at me a while ago for suggesting this. . . but it works for me so frack-em:

Pitch axis; set saturtion to somewhere between 30 and 40%.

Rolls xis; set saturatino around 60 to 75%

Yaw axis; set saturation around 80%, and change the curve so it is flatter in the middle (giving more precise control when the rudders are near centre)

For me doing this meant almost zero instances of wings ripping off whilst still allowing me to turn as tightly as the aerodynamics will allow. It also means smoother, more sensible control of the machine without the sudden jerky flicking you get from 100% saturation.

Phil,

I "had seen your curves" :-) but I feared such big saturation values could affect combat turning performance, at lower altitudes / Gs... But I did apply a saturation of 80% to both the pitch and yaw axis...

Phil,

 

I "had seen your curves" :-) but I feared such big saturation values could affect combat turning performance, at lower altitudes / Gs... ..

I balanced that effect out.

I set the curve so that I could still get the aircraft to stall at max stick defelction at low speed.

Setting around 33% means that;

1. You can still snap wings off if you are super agressive, but its very hard to do so, and

2. You can still put enough stick defelction in so that the aircraft will stall, or the Pilot black out at pretty much any speed.

With my curves, I've not yet found myself in a situation where I would be able to put in more stick deflection and not stall or black out if only the curvature were higher.

Have to give it a try then...

Got yourself early x-mass present Spitfire video from here

https://www.dukevideo.com/prd8379ED/Supermarine-Spitfire-A-Pilots-View-Download

 

Seems like a pleasure airplane to fly unlike DCS version where I a lot of things feels a bit exaggerated.

 

For starters I like full right aileron take off as crosswind control with light dance on the rudder and without much struggle for directional control unlike DCS.

 

Neutral longitudinal static stability indeed requires little control on landing. But for some reason I have a hard time achieving it with my HOTAS. Although controls deflection now seems similar to real one (once again thanks again for the tip on Warthong curves)

 

Dropping flaps on the video doesn't produce such huge negative pitch moment like in DCS. The landing seems not that complicated, struts obsorbs soft field just fine without too much bounce.

 

Now there is a one weird thing is VSI featured in game and in the video. That mark on the video when Spit touch down would indicate 1000 ft per minute in DCS version. It can't be soft landing by any means. So is there the scale difference or some kind of instrument error due to pitch attitude on three point landing where 1000 fpm would translate to something like 250 fpm. I can't figure it out

 

By the way roll rate on the video looks exactly like in DCS. Nice.

 

So the bottom line. Spit may need few tweak perhaps? May be my video comparison it's not much scientific but served me well for the last 15 years of my flying career LOL

You do realize you are comparing an experienced pilot with probably hundreds of hours of flight experience, and probably many hours in the Spitfire itself to yourself, and basically saying --if he makes it look easy, it must be easy; therefore, if it's not easy in DCS it's wrong--.

Hey, you probably have a drivers license and a car. There are a bunch of car-drifting videos in YT. Go watch a few and then go to your local parking lot and show us how you do it. Please have a friend film it for YT; I need a good laugh :doh:

I never realized I was only getting 50% braking with the toe brake setup.

:) ... :noexpression: ... :huh: ... I didn't say that. Sorry if you were misled to believe that.

I am not sure I need more but I certainly need to mess with that concept and try a few things. Thanks guys.

You have two toe-brakes (if your rudder pedals have them), left and right. When configured to the In-Cockpit Brake-Lever their inputs are registered independently, like if you were using two mice at the same time:

- if you can coordinate them, never clicking or moving them at the same time, fine

- it's much easier however to use only one mouse

- if you've already learned to use two mice, one for each side of the window, it will be difficult to unlearn it to using only one mouse

You do realize you are comparing an experienced pilot with probably hundreds of hours of flight experience, and probably many hours in the Spitfire itself to yourself, and basically saying --if he makes it look easy, it must be easy; therefore, if it's not easy in DCS it's wrong--.

 

 

 

Hey, you probably have a drivers license and a car. There are a bunch of car-drifting videos in YT. Go watch a few and then go to your local parking lot and show us how you do it. Please have a friend film it for YT; I need a good laugh :doh:

For what it worth Spit wasn't designed to accommodate exclusive club of experienced pilots. As keep saying to my students - flying is the easiest part of learning, making right decision is hardest :)

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

You do realize you are comparing an experienced pilot with probably hundreds of hours of flight experience, and probably many hours in the Spitfire itself to yourself, and basically saying --if he makes it look easy, it must be easy; therefore, if it's not easy in DCS it's wrong--.

 

 

 

Hey, you probably have a drivers license and a car. There are a bunch of car-drifting videos in YT. Go watch a few and then go to your local parking lot and show us how you do it. Please have a friend film it for YT; I need a good laugh :doh:

For what it worth Spit wasn't designed to accommodate exclusive club of experienced pilots. As keep saying to my students - flying is the easiest part of learning, making right decision is hardest :)

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

http://www.spitsim.co.uk

 

RC planes have the same thing, it's called EXPO tho "Exponential"

VKB joystick and I believe ones that use TARGET can have this "exponential" curve under button press (like in R/C transmitters).

For what it worth Spit wasn't designed to accommodate exclusive club of experienced pilots. As keep saying to my students - flying is the easiest part of learning, making right decision is hardest :)

 

 

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

No, the Spitfire was designed to be a fighter aircraft, to be fast and maneuverable. That it be flyable by those intended to pilot it, I believe, can be read between the lines.

No, the Spitfire was designed to be a fighter aircraft, to be fast and maneuverable. That it be flyable by those intended to pilot it, I believe, can be read between the lines.

Ok, so it's for regular fighter pilot cadets to fly? Correct? Not for ATP certificated pilots with minimum 1500 hours? So make let's it so in DCS.

It doesn't mean to simplify the Spit model but rather tweak it.

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but rather tweak it

Only if someone produces clear evidence supporting that. Otherwise leave it alone. Opinions don't count one bit.

I honestly can't find the Spitfire difficult to handle at all, using my cheap controller setup ( TS16000 stick only, broken HOTAS unit from an old X52, and Saitek Combat Rudder )...

Well, exception made to when I bounce in a landing - bouncing in this module is almost prohibited, which doesn't appear to be the case IRL... at least judging from the videos I watch on YouTube.... :-)

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=d_3YuwerLCQ

I just try to follow the mentioned techniques, obtained from several pilot reports over the Internet, and mimic it as close as possible in our virtual world of flight....

Spitfire is way too easy to baloon on landings. You try to stabilize above the runway and it will 9/10 times baloon upwards. This airplane is a very annoying one to fly and im saying that with my 60+ cm stick. Also, 3 point landings are quite unlikely. Im getting 2,5 point landings most of the time. Doint a 3 point requires me to nearly stall before touchdown.

Doint a 3 point requires me to nearly stall before touchdown.

Stalling is how you perform a three point landing.

:) ... :noexpression: ... :huh: ... I didn't say that. Sorry if you were misled to believe that.

 

 

 

You have two toe-brakes (if your rudder pedals have them), left and right. When configured to the In-Cockpit Brake-Lever their inputs are registered independently, like if you were using two mice at the same time:

- if you can coordinate them, never clicking or moving them at the same time, fine

- it's much easier however to use only one mouse

- if you've already learned to use two mice, one for each side of the window, it will be difficult to unlearn it to using only one mouse

Very cool. I will try that. I have my brakes set to something else like wheel brakes in the axis section or something. That change should help immensely. I am wondering about using an old joystick to give me more axis. I didn't realize they were even air brakes. Now we are in MY world. I can see a trip to my Local Supermarine Spitfire LF MK IX and get some more data on this system. It's an hour away. Perhaps next week.

I ran across a pressure reducing valve a minute ago for sale in NZ. ha ha. Searches being what they are. I haven't run across a brake valve or actual pics of the rudder to braking system mechanicals. I need to know it all now. I ran across this interesting read which may not be new to many but there are a number of interesting paragraphs throughout regarding brakes. http://www.warbirdalley.com/articles/spitfire-flight-report.htm

As for the brakes an update. I tried it on my slide but I much prefer my way. If an analog lever was on the actual joystick, it would be more comprehensive to use one analog lever for sure. I see the concept but I'll stick with having both my x and y bound to the analog brakes in axis.

If an analog lever was on the actual joystick, it would be more comprehensive to use one analog lever for sure.

He is: ;)

https://virpil.com/images/stories/virtuemart/product/MT-50_GripGREY_02.jpg

https://vkbcontrollers.com/wp-content/uploads/2017/08/MCG-captions-2.jpg

~500 fpm touch down on hard sufcaes. No bouncing :music_whistling: (try it on Nevada map in DCS)