Following the "Flight Director" to land

Does this thing have a clue where its going?

So basically I'm really struggling to bring the SU-27 into land. The problem isnt so much landing, its going from say 100 miles out, navigating to the RTN point and then following in for the landing.

My issue is that I follow the flight director (I think that's what its called) and It honestly seems like it has no idea where its going. Ive just came off a mission where I set the bird on route follow autopilot and it literally flew one way, then the other way, then back the way it was, over and over again, all the while getting further AWAY from the airport! I was just sitting there looking at it wondering what in the heck is going on! A lot of the time the Autopilot actually just randomly flies you into the ground, whats that all about!

When I try it manually, the little circle moves up and down and up and down then all the way to the right then all the way to the left, like it's just taking me on a while goose chase. Sometimes I catch a glimpse of the airport Im meant to be landing at, but the director steers me right on past it. Yesterday I followed it until I ran out of fuel and at no point did it get me anywhere near the glideslope for the runway.

This is driving me nuts. Why isnt it directing me properly onto the runway? I mean how hard is it to just tell me which way to turn instead of taking me round in circles and up and down. So frustrated.

My process is to choose RTN mode which I believe should navigate me to the beginning of the glideslope. I literally just keep my bird inside the green circle in the HUD and it takes me everywhere but where I should be going. I have also tried LNDG but that doesnt get me anywhere either.

The only times I have had success landing is when I create my own mission and just make it a straight shoot right onto the runway. I have no issue landing the bird perfectly most times.

Thanks for reading.

I've never really liked that thing. I don't know if it works right or not, but it sucks.

Btw, RTN takes you to a spot abiut 20km away to begin your final approach, it should automatically switch the LND as you reach it.. if you want the glideslope, use the HSI. In landing mode the course director is used to represent the runway orientation. There are some indicators for altitude and such there as well (the floating red lines, usually in Soviet planes)

The HDD will tell you the route it will try to take you. It will not fly straight towards a waypoint it’ll intercept it at the closest angle it can to get on the radial/path as fast as possible. The circle on the hud during nav is not tellin you attitude but wether you need to lower/raise altitude or turn right/left. it is high if you are below altitude and low if you are above altitude. It will be right or left depending on your bank, right if you need to bank and turn right and vice versa. The ADI like Zhukov said also gives you reliable information. Remember the autopilot only works within a specific speed range. It also only has as much authority as trim, so sometimes you may need to trim if say you increase speed and it wants to pitch up more than the autopilot can compensate. For example if you exit autopilot the control surfaces will be trimmed to the position they were last in before turning autopilot off, so press trim reset if needed. It will also go berserk when you lower your landing gear and get very close to base.

Also it will not cycle to next waypoint unless you pass within 1km, otherwise it will always fly you to one way point even if you pass it.

If you post a track or a video we could figure out exactly what’s happening.

Actually if you look at the airport approach charts on your kneeboard, you will see various initial points around the field for different approaches. The system will automatically choose the correct one for your position and the active runway. It then will steer you onto the correct path for landing. You can use this to fly an approach in basically zero-zero conditions.

Now the autopilot is a little different in each of the FC3 aircraft. My favorite is the one in the Su25T. But you can fly the return pretty much the same in all of them.

If you want I can show you how to do it in the Su-25 and Su-27 on the server or maybe I will do a video. Anyway, the autopilot is rather aggressive at getting you back on course. Therefore it makes large corrections. You can look at your HSI and manually fly the needles until you get back on course if need be.

Anyway, the offer still stands to fly with me. I can show you a lot easier than typing here. Instrument flying is one of the things that makes DCS so great in my opinion.

Actually, if anyone is interested in doing some instrument training, let me know. I will put a scenario on the server and we can setup a time to fly. I am UTC-5 here in the USA.

Wow thanks for the helpful replies guys, very useful! That's a really kind offer Zeagle, I'm in the UK though so not sure how that would work time wise? Anyway I read over all your replies guys and loaded DCS up again for another go. I think its starting to make more sense now, but I have some more questions that are now in the forefront of my mind to ask lol.

1. Am I right in saying the digital number on the HUD is in KM, however if I press F10 and draw a line, that line is in Miles?

2. When I choce the RTN flight mode, and I cycle the next waypoint, is there any way I can tell which airport these waypoints are referring to? I like to radio in to ask for landing permission and im never sure just how this ties into each other.

3. The "Bearing Pointer" on my HSI seems to always direct me in the same direction as the flight director circle, and as you said AeriaGloria this directs me to an intercept point of the glideslope. In the mission I just flew this intersected the glideslope very close to the runway, so it didnt give me that much time to make the turn and line up to land. Isnt there a function that directs me exactly to the start of the glide slope (glide slope capture point), other than watching for the box on the HDD?

4. When you radio a tower for landing approval, what makes them give you the runway number that they do? Mozdok has 26 and 08 for example. Is it simply a matter of whichever side of the runway you are coming from or is it random? EDIT: Further testing shows it doesnt seem to matter which side I approach from. They still give the same runway number but Im not exactly sure why.

5. Do you need to radio ahead to an airport to ask for landing permission in order to get the "ILS Landing" information on your screen? And by that I mean the capital letter K at the bottom left and funny looking R on the bottom right?

Oh and one last question and I really hope I have this right as it will be a real 'lightbulb' moment if its true. I could have sworn someone posted this as a reply above but I cant find it now. Anyway, regarding the "desired course arrow" on the HSI - Am I right in saying that it lines itself up exactly parallel to the runway that you are trying to land at? With the point of the arrow dictating the side on which you land?

Thanks so much guys. Sorry for so many questions. I do have the manual up on my screen / pages printed out and I try to test things myself but sometimes I just really need to ask questions to get that info into my head!

Wow thanks for the helpful replies guys, very useful! That's a really kind offer Zeagle, I'm in the UK though so not sure how that would work time wise? Anyway I read over all your replies guys and loaded DCS up again for another go. I think its starting to make more sense now, but I have some more questions that are now in the forefront of my mind to ask lol.

 

1. Am I right in saying the digital number on the HUD is in KM, however if I press F10 and draw a line, that line is in Miles?

 

2. When I choce the RTN flight mode, and I cycle the next waypoint, is there any way I can tell which airport these waypoints are referring to? I like to radio in to ask for landing permission and im never sure just how this ties into each other.

 

3. The "Bearing Pointer" on my HSI seems to always direct me in the same direction as the flight director circle, and as you said AeriaGloria this directs me to an intercept point of the glideslope. In the mission I just flew this intersected the glideslope very close to the runway, so it didnt give me that much time to make the turn and line up to land. Isnt there a function that directs me exactly to the start of the glide slope (glide slope capture point), other than watching for the box on the HDD?

...

1. Km on the HUD and whatever system you have selected for the other. I use metric for both.

2. Zoom out on the HDD (“-“ key) as far as you can. You’ll then see which airbase/airport you’re selecting within the limits of the HDD.

3. The glide slope seems to be divided roughly in half. If your approach takes you closer to this midpoint than the IAF, it’ll switch to this point assuming that you want to make an abbreviated approach. You can see this point on the HDD when in landing mode if you swing out from the glide path immediately after the IAF. EDIT: Or just select Landing Mode when farther out. You'll see it bring you to that midpoint which is a couple of klicks shy of the outer marker.

...

 

4. When you radio a tower for landing approval, what makes them give you the runway number that they do? Mozdok has 26 and 08 for example. Is it simply a matter of whichever side of the runway you are coming from or is it random? EDIT: Further testing shows it doesnt seem to matter which side I approach from. They still give the same runway number but Im not exactly sure why.

 

5. Do you need to radio ahead to an airport to ask for landing permission in order to get the "ILS Landing" information on your screen? And by that I mean the capital letter K at the bottom left and funny looking R on the bottom right?

 

Oh and one last question and I really hope I have this right as it will be a real 'lightbulb' moment if its true. I could have sworn someone posted this as a reply above but I cant find it now. Anyway, regarding the "desired course arrow" on the HSI - Am I right in saying that it lines itself up exactly parallel to the runway that you are trying to land at? With the point of the arrow dictating the side on which you land?

 

Thanks so much guys. Sorry for so many questions. I do have the manual up on my screen / pages printed out and I try to test things myself but sometimes I just really need to ask questions to get that info into my head!

Sorry, I’m trying to reply from work and my previous rely took 20 minutes to write. Thought i’d better send it before I accidentally deleted it.

4. Some airbases/airports use only one runway direction (Butami, for instance) but all use a primary runway direction. A different runway in the latter situation can be used if the wind direction requires it.

5. No. You get it automatically if the runway supports the Russian ILS. There are only 6 runways equipped with it by default in the Caucasus. However, if you want the lights on when you get there, then you need to call ahead.

As far as the desired course arrow is concerned, it indicates the runway orientation in reference to your aircraft with the pointy end indicating your landing direction.

Nalchik also only has one runway direction

Thanks for answering all my points Ironhand, much appreciated. I definitely have a much better grasp of things now. I'm just going to ignore the flight director circle (except when on glideslope about to land) and use the HSI instead.

Ah ok cheers AeriaGloria.

...I'm just going to ignore the flight director circle (except when on glideslope about to land) and use the HSI instead.

 

...

:) Which is exactly the opposite of how I use them.

:) Which is exactly the opposite of how I use them.

Your flight director must behave a lot better than mine! Ive followed that thing up and down and up and down and round and round once too many times to ever trust it again! I find when landing, its range of movement gets very small as you get close to the runway, so I can use it successfully.

Your flight director must behave a lot better than mine! Ive followed that thing up and down and up and down and round and round once too many times to ever trust it again! I find when landing, its range of movement gets very small as you get close to the runway, so I can use it successfully.

:) No. I’ve just been using it for more years than I care to admit and understand what it’s doing. Just don’t chase it.

Use it in conjunction with the HDD for maneuvering in the horizontal to understand how much room you have. For the vertical use it in conjunction with the range to the upcoming waypoint.

IIRC, I talk about some of this stuff in a video on my YT channel—the one using the default Su-25T Easy Landing training mission. Clicking my wig will take you to the channel.

Well maybe I'm using it incorrectly then. And I appreciate you sharing your years of experience! So my latest process that works for me is roughly this:

1. Open the comms menu and contact an ATC for whichever airport I want to land at.

2. Set my navigation mode to LNDG and cycle to the waypoint representing the airport I contacted above. (I still find myself using F10 to make sure my waypoint is at the correct airport - is this considered cheating?)

3. Look down at the HSI which will tell me the orientation of the runway, and follow the yellow arrow to intercept the glideslope (or manually fly to the glideslope box using the HDD - this part isnt an exact science for me yet)

4. One way or another I will now be lined up for the runway. My course arrow and bearing pointer will now be aligned.

5. As I come in to touch down on the runway, its here that I use the flight director circle as it helps to guide me correctly onto the runway. I don't see how the HSI is more useful in this final decent than the flight director?

What is your opinion of my steps? If I can streamline anything please say.

Thanks.

Well maybe I'm using it incorrectly then. And I appreciate you sharing your years of experience! So my latest process that works for me is roughly this:

 

1. Open the comms menu and contact an ATC for whichever airport I want to land at.

 

2. Set my navigation mode to LNDG and cycle to the waypoint representing the airport I contacted above. (I still find myself using F10 to make sure my waypoint is at the correct airport - is this considered cheating?)

 

3. Look down at the HSI which will tell me the orientation of the runway, and follow the yellow arrow to intercept the glideslope (or manually fly to the glideslope box using the HDD - this part isnt an exact science for me yet)

 

4. One way or another I will now be lined up for the runway. My course arrow and bearing pointer will now be aligned.

 

5. As I come in to touch down on the runway, its here that I use the flight director circle as it helps to guide me correctly onto the runway. I don't see how the HSI is more useful in this final decent than the flight director?

 

What is your opinion of my steps? If I can streamline anything please say.

 

Thanks.

Use what works best for you now and learn some alternatives as you go. I don’t consider using F10 as you do a “cheat” anymore than having a map in the cockpit with you.

The only thing I would change is not selecting LNDG where you do. This brings you to the midpoint of the glideslope rather than its start. RETURN brings you to the start. What it doesn’t do is show you the runway orientation but you can get that from the HDD as you get closer.

In the end you need to know several ways to get to a runway and land. I prefer using the HUD cues but, if I lose the HUD, I can use the HSI and ADI depending on the RSBN/PRMG setup to get myself down.

Ok thanks!

Just my 2 cents:

In FC3 only Su-27/33/J-11A has the HDD navigation. While useful you won't have it in other aircraft. So when you're in the RTN mode you can differentiate all the airbases on the map by the distance from where you are (when you know the map) and their course (unique runway heading).

https://forums.eagle.ru/showpost.php?p=2508405&postcount=11

Some russian birds will even show you the ID to match the airport from the list.

What I like to do is to contact ATC and do exactly what they tell you - fly the given course for the given range to get to IAF and keep the runway heading in the back of your head to know where to turn and look when you're already at IAF.

IRL it's the pilot's rensponsibility to know where you are and where you want to fly. Since they have some more tools/instruments available we have to rely on what the FC3 provides - usually the visuals, ATC and waypoints hardcoded into the map/mission.

F10 is good for the learning process but try not to rely on it as to exercise your SA. Since you're catching the runways straight in the next step will be to catch the pattern and learn the overhead - so much more fun :thumbup:

I agree with Ironhand...F10 is useful and realistic as now everybody has some form of GPS or something similar in the cockpit, even the old Su-25.

The runway is determined by the wind in the sim. In real life runway is also determined by the wind, except early in the morning. Then, wind permitting, the runway may be determined by the sun. If the sun is in the pilots' faces, and wind permits, then the runway will be westerly.

Your flight director must behave a lot better than mine! Ive followed that thing up and down and up and down and round and round once too many times to ever trust it again! I find when landing, its range of movement gets very small as you get close to the runway, so I can use it successfully.

That's because it is directing you to take up to (sometimes) a 90 degree intercept on the course line. In real life you fly something like a 30 degree intercept. I use the HUD circle as an altitude ref and the HSI as my horizontal ref, except at night in the Su-25t when you cant even see the HSI needles. You can also use the ADI needles for vertical guidance.

And be careful following that HUD cue when making approaches to airports with high terrain nearby (Gudauta). It may just put you into a mountain if you trust it blindly. Always be aware of terrain and obstructions (also Gudauta...radio tower almost in the pattern).

Just my 2 cents:

In FC3 only Su-27/33/J-11A has the HDD navigation. While useful you won't have it in other aircraft. So when you're in the RTN mode you can differentiate all the airbases on the map by the distance from where you are (when you know the map) and their course (unique runway heading).

 

https://forums.eagle.ru/showpost.php?p=2508405&postcount=11

 

Some russian birds will even show you the ID to match the airport from the list.

 

What I like to do is to contact ATC and do exactly what they tell you - fly the given course for the given range to get to IAF and keep the runway heading in the back of your head to know where to turn and look when you're already at IAF.

 

IRL it's the pilot's rensponsibility to know where you are and where you want to fly. Since they have some more tools/instruments available we have to rely on what the FC3 provides - usually the visuals, ATC and waypoints hardcoded into the map/mission.

 

F10 is good for the learning process but try not to rely on it as to exercise your SA. Since you're catching the runways straight in the next step will be to catch the pattern and learn the overhead - so much more fun :thumbup:

Thanks for all that. What do you mean by "exercise your SA"?

That's because it is directing you to take up to (sometimes) a 90 degree intercept on the course line. In real life you fly something like a 30 degree intercept. I use the HUD circle as an altitude ref and the HSI as my horizontal ref, except at night in the Su-25t when you cant even see the HSI needles. You can also use the ADI needles for vertical guidance.

 

And be careful following that HUD cue when making approaches to airports with high terrain nearby (Gudauta). It may just put you into a mountain if you trust it blindly. Always be aware of terrain and obstructions (also Gudauta...radio tower almost in the pattern).

Thanks. Interesting to see how people have different methods. I keep hearing about this word "pattern" what does that mean? Is it in relation to landing?I have heard in used as "pattern altitude" but unsure exactly what it means or when I need to use it.

Thanks again guys for taking the time to share your knowledge with me!

Just a couple of additional questions please Draconus,

1. When I open the comms menu and select ATC and I get the list of airports. Are those airports ordered from closest to furthest away?

2. After all the airports names there are numbers. Mozdok says (4.55 / 137 / 41.6 / 266 MHz) what do these all mean?

3. When I select an airport and request inbound and they give me the heading and the distance, should that distance they give me be the same as the distance that comes up in my HUD when I select to RTN to that airport? In other words, can I match these numbers up to make sure im actually waypointed to the airport that I just contacted?

Thanks!

Fighting Falcon....

1. yes

2. radio frequencies

3. it should be pretty close. If you are in the Su-25T you can select the airport by number.

re-doing the video

Thanks for all that. What do you mean by "exercise your SA"?

...

I keep hearing about this word "pattern" what does that mean? Is it in relation to landing?I have heard in used as "pattern altitude" but unsure exactly what it means or when I need to use it.

 

...

1. When I open the comms menu and select ATC and I get the list of airports. Are those airports ordered from closest to furthest away?

 

2. After all the airports names there are numbers. Mozdok says (4.55 / 137 / 41.6 / 266 MHz) what do these all mean?

 

3. When I select an airport and request inbound and they give me the heading and the distance, should that distance they give me be the same as the distance that comes up in my HUD when I select to RTN to that airport? In other words, can I match these numbers up to make sure im actually waypointed to the airport that I just contacted?

SA means situational awareness - it's how much aware you are of your surroundings and your position. Comes with flight hours whenever you're not using cheats like digital maps, labels, padlock view...

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Airfield_traffic_pattern

IRL the ATC and local rules (and airport charts, you have them in your kneeboard) decide what it looks like and what is pattern altitude. For Caucasus just use 600m AGL and left turn pattern to not overthink it now.

1. Yes, this cheat is forced on us even with high fidelity modules.

2. Not applicable to FC3 aircraft.

3. Yeah, but afair you usually search airports in landing mode to get the correct course - runway heading. So this gives you range to the runway itself while the ATC will tell you the range to IAF. It means it can be +/- 5nm.

2 is applicable if using SRS...which does work with FC3 birds

3. The IAF exists to prevent people coming in on reciprocal headings and having to do a 360 to establish on the approach course.

Reference #1, would you rather have to type in the name of the field every time? The drop-down list is handy. It's like having a kneeboard. Is the kneeboard cheating?

In my career we used EVERY "cheat" we could get. I mean things such as maps, charts, GPS, INS, radar vectors, DF steer, etc. There is no "cheat" with these things. These are called "tools".

In the old days we had lat/lon coordinates written with grease pencil all over our scopes in order to cheat.

Go to Oshkosh, or Sun-n-Fun, or any other airshow such as RIAT and the like. Look in the cockpit of one of these older birds. You will see a GPS attached by Velcro or straps or bolted in somehow. I suppose they are cheating too.

"you cheated sir"

"I do not believe in the no-win scenario"...Capt James T. Kirk lol

2 is applicable if using SRS...which does work with FC3 birds

 

3. The IAF exists to prevent people coming in on reciprocal headings and having to do a 360 to establish on the approach course.

 

Reference #1, would you rather have to type in the name of the field every time? The drop-down list is handy. It's like having a kneeboard. Is the kneeboard cheating?

 

In my career we used EVERY "cheat" we could get. I mean things such as maps, charts, GPS, INS, radar vectors, DF steer, etc. There is no "cheat" with these things. These are called "tools".

In the old days we had lat/lon coordinates written with grease pencil all over our scopes in order to cheat.

 

Go to Oshkosh, or Sun-n-Fun, or any other airshow such as RIAT and the like. Look in the cockpit of one of these older birds. You will see a GPS attached by Velcro or straps or bolted in somehow. I suppose they are cheating too.

 

"you cheated sir"

"I do not believe in the no-win scenario"...Capt James T. Kirk lol

Don't get excited. I've just got my own Samurai code so I can only express my opinion since you asked:

- Airport list is ok. Names come from simplification since we cannot set radios in FC3. The order by increasing range is a cheat.

- Kneeboard, cockpit writings and map is ok. Kneeboard map position marks is a cheat.

- F10 map in no way simulate paper map so I don't use it during the missions. If you see your and other aircraft it is a cheat.

When I jump into 90's Su-27 in DCS I expect to fly the 90's Su-27 as the military pilot and what he would be using in his aircraft during the combat mission not what pilot would use today in an air show.

I would like to know what exactly can you do with SRS and FC3. Can you fly to any set radio as ADF? Does ATC stop responding if you don't select correct frequency?

Well I see your point Draconus. And I agree with you mostly. But we have limitations in a sim. Some of these things make it more enjoyable to some.

With SRS you can dial in a frequency as opposed to going over to Discord and changing rooms. It sounds better too in my opinion.

As far as the 90's Su-27 guy, he would be talking to GCI with all kinds of intel as to the locations and types of other aircraft. The F10 map with "fog of war" setting seems to simulate this kind of intel.