Bf109's 30mm cannon too weak Poll

It's highly unlikely the fw had 30mm ammo since usually this kind of ammo was used to shoot bombers on the western front.

 

 

 

It's a Russian documentary : weapons of victory part 28. The narator tells you in russian what kind of plane, gun is in video I posted.

 

If you want to see another example of 37mm damage you can see in DCS the mig15 can kill a f86 with one 37mm shot from any angle 90% of the time.

 

But you can't blow a horizontal stabilizer or vertical stabilizer with three shots to the tail ? That's at least questionable.

 

 

 

Your "unquestioned, absolute proof" : "There are B-17s that had 88mm detonate INSIDE the fuselage that made it home". Is not even a video. It's just words.

Where is your video ?

Why SHOULD we allow such words is.This is "UNALAWELABLE".:megalol:

 

 

 

Of course it can .You find out that now ? :megalol:

That FW190 was hit into the ammo in the wing. There are at least 2 or 3 US gun cameras where 190 wing blows up while getting hit with few .50cal bullets.

https://youtu.be/HB2ntxv9_50?t=24m55s It happens at 25:05 or something. Check it out.

And I recommend watching this footage. It is great :)

It's highly unlikely the fw had 30mm ammo since usually this kind of ammo was used to shoot bombers on the western front.

 

 

It's a Russian documentary : weapons of victory part 28. The narator tells you in russian what kind of plane, gun is in video I posted.

 

If you want to see another example of 37mm damage you can see in DCS the mig15 can kill a f86 with one 37mm shot from any angle 90% of the time.

 

But you can't blow a horizontal stabilizer or vertical stabilizer with three shots to the tail ? That's at least questionable.

 

 

Your "unquestioned, absolute proof" : "There are B-17s that had 88mm detonate INSIDE the fuselage that made it home". Is not even a video. It's just words.

Where is your video ?

Why SHOULD we allow such words is.This is "UNALAWELABLE".:megalol:

 

Of course it can .You find out that now ? :megalol:

Ohh, ok. So we're supposed to trust a Russian television documentary, but not the USAAF archives. Gotcha. Man, these rules sure are hard to remember!

Oh, and it took me under 5 seconds to google a photo of a B-17 that survived an 88mm hit amidships (around the waist guns).

http://imagesia.com/dam-b17-flak-hit-amidships-1_dkvl

Do they not teach devil's advocacy where you grew up? Do you not even UNDERSTAND sarcasm? Because the whole POINT is that these claims are ridiculous. The luftwhiners make preposterous claims about what they think the 30mm *should* do, and try to back that up with unverified video, so I show you how ridiculous that is by doing the same from the allied side, making outlandish claims based on cherry-picked videos. Do you *really* not understand that?

That FW190 was hit into the ammo in the wing. There are at least 2 or 3 US gun cameras where 190 wing blows up while getting hit with few .50cal bullets.

 

https://youtu.be/HB2ntxv9_50?t=24m55s It happens at 25:05 or something. Check it out.

 

And I recommend watching this footage. It is great :)

LULZ I see what you did there. Sure is a good thing that television documentaries are so unerringly reliable, lest I think that maybe that stock footage had been re-used by multiple nationalities and claimed as kills made by different aircraft with vastly differing weapons systems ;)

Guys... EDGE wont fix this, so I hope when you guys say you are waiting on EDGE, you mean for EDGE to be done and released so they can focus on other things, like damage modeling and such...

Yep, that was why I said DCS 2.0.... At least they are aware it is something that needs an overhaul.

LULZ I see what you did there. Sure is a good thing that television documentaries are so unerringly reliable, lest I think that maybe that stock footage had been re-used by multiple nationalities and claimed as kills made by different aircraft with vastly differing weapons systems ;)

That is true. You can see the same kills in British and American propaganda films and one documentary about German planes shows "action over Poland(1939)" while in reality it is Russian I-16 from 1941 hammered by some 109F.

But... 190A realy seems to blow up in the middle of the wing. There realy are some footages using different guns, where the ammunition for outer MG151/20 blows up and cuts big chunk of the wing.

Given the fact that during WWII neither Yak-9s nor other Russian fighters were equipped with gun camera by default (trainer versions and rare, modified fighters are exception), I doubt this particular footage really shows 37mm in action. It might be Airacobra, it might be anything else. Not to mention the very same sequence being used in many many documentaries about other air forces (because it looks cool and casual viewers won't notice difference anyway).

Apart from the these observations, how many threads on the same subject do we really need? Yes, damage modelling in DCS needs rework now (especially of AI planes), it's been noticed by players many times before, Sith noticed it too and reported where needed. The problem is going to be taken care of. It's almost certain though, they're not going to do that until some late, post-release stage of DCS 2 development. I don't expect improvements in this aspect until 2016 and the release of more WWII birds.

 

Oh, and it took me under 5 seconds to google a photo of a B-17 that survived an 88mm hit amidships (around the waist guns).

 

http://imagesia.com/dam-b17-flak-hit-amidships-1_dkvl

 

Do they not teach devil's advocacy where you grew up? Do you not even UNDERSTAND sarcasm? Because the whole POINT is that these claims are ridiculous. The luftwhiners make preposterous claims about what they think the 30mm *should* do, and try to back that up with unverified video, so I show you how ridiculous that is by doing the same from the allied side, making outlandish claims based on cherry-picked videos. Do you *really* not understand that?

That picture is just cherry picked.We should now allow it .You said it not me.

Oh my god I got so upset because you get upset and call me luftwhiner.Very mature what can I say :lol:.

You're right! only a whiner would think that 3 30mm hits to the tail section should do at least some damage.

Oh and the majority of people that voted think i'm right .

underwing gun pods, which added a LOT of weight and drag to the airframe; to the point where there are tons of references by pilots that they hated the way it made the aircraft perform, and many squadrons refused to use them.

There are also tons of references about how powerfull the 30mm was:

Helmut Lennartz . august 15 1944 . me 262 combat testing:

Vs a b17 near near Stuttgart .

"i scored hits on the left wing.the effect was devastating,the wing broke away immediately"

16 august 1944 Siegfried schubert while flying a me163 cuts the tail section of a b17 with just 3 30mm shells.

Nobody said it would not be possible to clip of a wing with one 30mm, or destroy a tail section with 3 hits... Only that it not necessarily happens always when you hit a wing, depending where you hit! Engine, fuel tank, spars etc. all different areas of the same wing...

Now, say we have a P-51D and the .50cal hit all spars in a wing while firing a salvo the wing would likely clip.

Yet, it isn't reasonable to assume EVERY .50cal salvo hitting a wing must destroy it, right?

Footage, stories and pictures only show that it is possible to inflict massive damage to a plane IF you hit the right parts.

That picture is just cherry picked.We should now allow it .You said it not me.

Finally, you get it! You're right, we shouldn't try to use one picture to prove that a B-17 should always survive a direct 88mm hit. However, it does prove that a B-17 can survive a direct 88mm hit. See the difference? Let's now apply this same logic to the 30mm in DCS, 'k?

You're right! only a whiner would think that 3 30mm hits to the tail section should do at least some damage.

Strawman. I never said that 30mm should not do significant damage; I said that expecting that it would always kill X aircraft with Y hits (regardless of location of the hits) is nonsense.

Helmut Lennartz . august 15 1944 . me 262 combat testing:

 

Vs a b17 near near Stuttgart .

"i scored hitS on the left wing.the effect was devastating,the wing broke away immediately"

Hits, plural. How many? We don't know, do we?

16 august 1944 Siegfried schubert while flying a me163 cuts the tail section of a b17 with just 3 30mm shells.

Entirely believable. Everyday occurence? I don't know, but I doubt it. As the other Otto posted in a video here, there is plenty of film and video evidence of B-17 and -24 flying on with what appears to be negligible damage to overall airworthiness after closer to a dozen hits.

I've flown the Bf109K4 in DCS, and in my experience the tail comes right off the Mustang with a quarter-second burst or less. I haven't been anal enough to count exact hits, but can't be more than a couple.

On the flip side, dead-astern shots with the .50 into the Dora on more than rare occasion do no discernable damage whatsoever despite putting 100 or more rounds into the aircraft which, due to trajectory, should continue into forward parts of the fuselage.

DCS needs to work on damage modeling, period. There's no conspiracy to nerf the 30mm, and X number of hits with the real thing didn't ensure a kill in real life.

*edit*: *LOL* I love how, rather than trying to win through the weight of proof, Otto has now added me to his ignore list.... and is so petty that he felt the need to send me a PM to TELL me he put me on his ignore list, as if that's some kind of moral victory!

Oh and the majority of people that voted think i'm right .

There are also tons of references about how powerfull the 30mm was:

 

Helmut Lennartz . august 15 1944 . me 262 combat testing:

 

Vs a b17 near near Stuttgart .

"i scored hits on the left wing.the effect was devastating,the wing broke away immediately"

 

16 august 1944 Siegfried schubert while flying a me163 cuts the tail section of a b17 with just 3 30mm shells.

yes agree, maybe they will be able to improve the performance of the 30 at some point :)

People need to let that sink in.

 

I have a number of reports submitted on damage and lack there of. Its a matter of getting it tested and showing how it should or shouldnt work. I wont get frustrated considering what is going on right now, ED is busy. But dont kid yourself, nobody wants to see a sim leading WWII simulation in place more than I do, and I am pushing as much as I can, even while ED is busy.

Maybe,.. if there were a reported an actualized bug list, people would cease to report things and more things that result of the same bug.

I don't know what things are ED working, and what things ED has already finished their work.

Can you say us something? :huh:

They are working on the stuff that is broke.

That is supposed , ..but, in what broken stuff of bf-109K4 are they working? .. elevator trim?, slats behavior?, Mk-108 cannon? fuel system? electric-inertia starter? rudder authority? Flaps Handwheel? :huh:

There are many stuffs broken, and only a few info

I think he would just like a confirmation that these specific things are being worked on since your answer to him was very vague. No need to be snippy.

The answer was already given by Sith. Damage model is a known problem/bug (opposed to the gun has to be fixed) and ED works on fixing problems and making EDGE happen and developing new maps and working on the F-18 and overhauling the whole engine in due time, as they see fit.

Because of people on these forums sometimes behave like children whenever any details are given or a timeline announced, it is unlikely to get such an information, now.

Next in line usually is the "I'm the customer" rant, along with the usual "why don't they focus on XYZ first, it is my favorite problem, or I want to have this feature now" then demanding resources should move from X to Y... ignoring the fact, that different teams work on different projects.

Or maybe we behave like grown ups? Accept that ED is working on optimizing DCS and these issues are already on the known issues list, so it is a matter of time, dependencies to other parts requiring fixes etc.

Sorry, if I sound snippy, but I had to decide between stop following this thread or speaking my mind.

I'm trying the latter now.

No offense meant, or not pointing at anyone in particular.

This is a great community, but sometimes it gets carried away and forgets that we are playing a niche game that unlike most games require tremendous work and effort to be kept at this level of realism.

While waiting for the AI DM to improve I decided to modify the MK108 30mm shell .lua files so that the cannon rounds would more effective against the AI planes.

I enjoy it greatly: http://forums.eagle.ru/showthread.php?p=2371528#post2371528

I'm curious how the MK 108 30 mm shells will behave with the new damage model, because right now they are just hilariously weak..

Sent from my Redmi 5 using Tapatalk

Well, they really hurt my Spitfire, so for testing, I have to call them off really fast if I want to test specific damage :)

Well, that's the problem.. the shells only hurt instead of obliterate them as we see in the footage below. It was posted at the beginning of this thread, but I'll repost it.

What do you think.. will we have this REAL damage of the MK 108 or..?

If you re-read what I said, then you will probably get the sense they do pretty heavy damage real fast.

Sorry, from what you said it wasn't very clear. Thanks for clearing it up for me. :thumbup: