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Old 08-08-2020, 06:11 AM   #21
ChickenSim
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New sights and software increase the effectiveness, but the weapon ought to be a bolt-on upgrade without other software requirements at a bare minimum.

When we initially fielded APKWS and started doing offboard lases, the Hueys had no aiming cues at all. This meant our ideal usage was at night where I (the buddy laser) would be firing both the designator and the IR pointer at the target simultaneously, so they would have something to orient the nose on.

Daytime employment was more complicated, and would often require an additional mark to give them a stake in the ground.
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Old 08-08-2020, 11:08 AM   #22
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Swiftwin9s View Post
Query then, why does the Huey require a new sight system (SCS 7) to use APKWS
Does it? Manufacturer says that it doesn't.

Please provide evidence that new sight is required so you can aim the laser guided rocket properly on the target and without the new sight you can't aim and so on launch it, or get it guided at the target.
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Old 08-09-2020, 08:51 PM   #23
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There's a difference between "absolutely required" vs "good to have". Maybe it's not actually strictly required, but could be good to have such software upgrades, to help ensure success and not waste such PGM's.
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Old 08-10-2020, 07:48 AM   #24
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Rick50 View Post
There's a difference between "absolutely required" vs "good to have". Maybe it's not actually strictly required, but could be good to have such software upgrades, to help ensure success and not waste such PGM's.
There is difference "updated with other update" as well "updated because "good to have"".

All manufacturer data tells there is no need as there is no communication between rockets and launching platform. The 40° (+/- 20°) seeker has longer detection capabilities to spot laser spot than rocket can even reach.

The pilot use the rocket exactly as any non-guided rockets. Exactly same launch requirements as the rocket itself is autonomous with Lock-On-After-Launch.

1) get the target designated with laser and known code in rockets (ie. 168.
2) point the rocket inside that 40° angle at the target with a proper distance (relative to angle of aiming).
3) Fire rocket.

Example look at the OH-58 Kiowa Warrior. Pilots doesn't use sights for firing guns as the only official mean to aim is to use MFD where the MMS is boresighted to cannon and shows aiming cue on it.
But instead staring a display HDD, they use grease pen to mark a aiming dot to canopy and they use it to initiate the firing and then go by the effect on target.

Where do you want, or even need a aiming reticle? When you are at close range and rocket that in 0.5-1 second time starts guidance. In that time the rocket has flown already X meters straight. Let's say a 150 meters (there are photos of test firing where wings are already out just tens meters from launchpod) and if you are aiming 15 degree off from the target (fairly big error) then the rocket requires X distance to steer toward it.

Pilot with a grease pen marker on screen is expected to be able aim rocket on target with about +/- 5 degrees at 1 km distance. And if you have a collimator sight then it is very easy as your head movements don't matter.

Now comes the question for all of us...

1) What aiming reticle "SCS 7" is, and why attack helicopters don't need it but cargo helicopters do?

2) Does fighters need "SCS 7" update?

3) Why aiming a laser guided rocket is like aiming a unguided rocket?
(to understand this, think it as why the AGM-65 should be launched by perfect aiming, instead inside "keyhole")?

4) Why it is required to aim in 2-5 MOA accuracy a laser guided rocket?

So far manufacturer says "No software, No hardware modifications required on launching platform".
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Old 08-10-2020, 08:11 AM   #25
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ChickenSim View Post
New sights and software increase the effectiveness, but the weapon ought to be a bolt-on upgrade without other software requirements at a bare minimum.
So as you know what the "SCS 7" is, what it is then? Does it have a LST to point a pilot where designation is and fire at proper direction?

Quote:
When we initially fielded APKWS and started doing offboard lases, the Hueys had no aiming cues at all.
....
Daytime employment was more complicated, and would often require an additional mark to give them a stake in the ground.
How did UH-1Y pilots aim unguided rockets before?



And how did the UH-1N pilots do it?



All the optical systems, rockets and all, but no aiming cues and challenges at day time?

We know how a UH-1H does the aiming....

To me it sounds that many are trying to make the APKWS II to sound more challenging to aim than a unguided rockets. That pilot needs to be more accurate with the aiming, and there is requirement to add a new special mode reticle via software as the rocket ballistics are so much different (same by the manufacturer, even better as rocket can glide) or there is some kind connection between the launching platform and rockets than what unguided didn't need....

So "problem waiting a solution" is like it is wanted to be.
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Old 08-10-2020, 12:42 PM   #26
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Fri13 View Post
So as you know what the "SCS 7" is, what it is then?
AFAIK SCS stands for the "System Configuration Set" fitted to H-1 upgraded aircraft

UH-1N --> UH-1Y
AH-1W --> AH-1Z

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/H-1_upgrade_program

7.1 is the avionics software version.


Quote:
Originally Posted by Fri13 View Post
All the optical systems, rockets and all, but no aiming cues and challenges at day time?

We know how a UH-1H does the aiming....

To me it sounds that many are trying to make the APKWS II to sound more challenging to aim than a unguided rockets. That pilot needs to be more accurate with the aiming, and there is requirement to add a new special mode reticle via software as the rocket ballistics are so much different (same by the manufacturer, even better as rocket can glide) or there is some kind connection between the launching platform and rockets than what unguided didn't need....
APKWS is "lock on after launch" and as the pilot doesn't have the feed back of say a laser maverick, it's important to have good sighting and launch parameters so the APKWS can acquire the laser spot.

I'll try to use an analogy, without accurate launch parameters, launching a APKWS is similar to launching a AIM-9 maddog without being able to hear if you've a good "tone", PK is greatly reduced and there's a increased risk to nearby friendly forces.

AFAIK the RL (and DCS) day time solution is to mark the target with smoke (as well as lase).

None of these issues effect the AV-8B N/A as it's DMT can spot track and provide good launch parameters.

Last edited by Ramsay; 08-10-2020 at 01:17 PM.
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Old 08-10-2020, 01:58 PM   #27
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Fri13 View Post
All the optical systems, rockets and all, but no aiming cues and challenges at day time?

We know how a UH-1H does the aiming...
What I mean is that before there wasn't necessarily any feedback indicating where the pilot should point the nose, if they were employing from a distance great enough that they couldn't easily visually identify the target in the first place.

You greatly increase your odds of the weapon detecting the spot if it's launched directly toward the target and not offset an appreciable deal left or right. I don't know if the Huey had an organic markpoint system as it had never employed PGMs before this (to my knowledge), but CAS procedures required us to either read back the coordinates as they were entered in the system and shoot at those, or be tally/contact/captured the target or mark to employ on before obtaining attack clearance.

During the day, it was difficult for the helos to do the latter and obtain a tally from X kilometers out, so we would coordinate some other kind of visually significant mark (like smoke) to give the pilots something to aim the ballistic reticle at from afar.

At night, we could Sparkle and shoot the designator at the same time, so this was helpful.
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