Multiple Radar/AWG-9/Phoenix Issues since patch 2.5.6.52437

There are now several threads on radar problems that have emerged since the last patch. Here is a collection of all the threads that specifically mention problems with the radar since 2.5.6.52437:

1. 
    
   
2. "Jester goes RWS after firing, even if commanded to TWS Only"
   https://forums.eagle.ru/showthread.php?t=281888
    
   
3. "any news on the broken radar issue?"
   https://forums.eagle.ru/showthread.php?t=281286
    
   
4. "Jester Starts Mashing Non-Stop on RWS (Or Some Other Radar Mode) Key"
   https://forums.eagle.ru/showthread.php?t=271431
   (this is marked as "RESOLVED", but, as can be seen, it has come back)
    
   
5. "F14 Radar Problem after update Openbeta 2.5.6.52437"
   https://forums.eagle.ru/showthread.php?t=281739
    
   
6. "AWG-9 performance in multiplayer"
   https://forums.eagle.ru/showthread.php?t=280902
    
   
7. "Jester TWS A issue"
   https://forums.eagle.ru/showthread.php?t=280110
    
   
8. "Jester stuck in TWS Auto/Dropping locks from TWS to STT"
   https://forums.eagle.ru/showthread.php?t=282072
    
   
9. "Jester Spamming RWS Right After TWS Phoenix Launch"
   https://forums.eagle.ru/showthread.php?t=282888
    
   

From one perspective, it makes sense -- as there seem to be multiple issues. From another, though, it makes it difficult to know where to post updates/evidence, as in many cases the problems actually do involve multiple issues. I wonder if it might be useful to pull together all these problems issues into a single "hub" thread and then link to the various other threads? Or maybe just merge the threads?

From what I can make out, the problems can be summarized with the following:

1. (?) Not being able to detect contacts that should be detected -- e.g., coming in hot at co-altitude
   
2. (Human/Jester RIO) Dropping TWS lock IMMEDIATELY after launching Phoenix
   
3. (Jester RIO only?) Dropping STT lock IMMEDIATELY after launching Phoenix
   
4. (Jester RIO only) Dropping TWS or STT lock IMMEDIATELY after launching Phoenix AND then switching to RWS (but can be switched back to TWS)
   
5. (Jester RIO only) Dropping TWS or STT lock IMMEDIATELY after launching Phoenix, switching to RWS AND then refusing to switch back to TWS (though eventually after asking many times, you suddenly can get back to TWS and all seems to work again).
   
6. (Jester RIO only) Dropping TWS or STT lock IMMEDIATELY after launching Phoenix , switching to RWS, refusing to switch back to TWS AND then Jester continuously spam/mashing keys blocking out all and any attempts to do anything with the radar (requires respawn).
   
7. (Jester RIO only) Dropping TWS lock IMMEDIATELY after launching Phoenix AND then refusing to leave TWS mode (even after missile is long trashed, cycling through PAL/VSL mode etc.).
   
8. (Human/Jester RIO; known issue) Faulty MLC filter settings leads to multiple spurious contacts too easily.
   
9. (Jester RIO only) TWS Launch without Time to Impact being displayed
   
10. (Jester RIO only) (Alternate interpretation of 4-6 above, based on https://forums.eagle.ru/showthread.php?t=282888) Switching to RWS immediately after or simultaneous as launching Phoenix (resulting in all TWS tracks being dropped), sometimes followed by refusing to switch back to TWS, and this in turn sometimes followed by mashing the RWS keys.
    

As can be seen, rather than simple independent issues, in many cases they seem to be a complex or perhaps even sequence of connected problems. What is perplexing (and frustrating, I know, to debug) is that the problems are difficult to replicate consistently. I will fly one mission fine, and the next I will get the TWS locks being dropped and Jester going to RWS (but not problems switching back to TWS), while a few missions later I will get the whole nine yards.

FWIW, though I've experienced 1 through 7 as well as 9 above since the last patch (all in multiplayer with Jester as RIO). And NOT ONE OF THE ABOVE at all before the last 2.5.6.52437, despite considerably more hours put in. So it is difficult to escape the conclusion that last patch definitely broke something or somethings.

For me, right now, I still enjoy the Tomcat for flying, carrier recovery, formation, aerial refueling practice, and BFM. But NOT for BVR engagements or anything that requires use of the AWG-9/Phoenix system (at least when relying on Jester in multiplayer).

Thank you for putting this together, we can make this thread the central reporting thread for AWG-9 issues. Some of these issues we think are Jester related, we are looking in to all of it.

I wouldn't say they are all Jester related (the random, uncommanded mode switching is for sure), I've done some RIO work myself and had human RIO's to reproduce the issues I saw and we all came to the conclusion that the radar is absolutely bent and Phoenixes do really wonky stuff in the terminal phase. You get a bunch of random, fake tracks on the TID, locks barely hold if the bandit changes aspect even slightly and a lot of random stuff happening. Definitely not even close to what it was last year.

I wouldn't say they are all Jester related (the random, uncommanded mode switching is for sure), I've done some RIO work myself and had human RIO's to reproduce the issues I saw and we all came to the conclusion that the radar is absolutely bent and Phoenixes do really wonky stuff in the terminal phase. You get a bunch of random, fake tracks on the TID, locks barely hold if the bandit changes aspect even slightly and a lot of random stuff happening. Definitely not even close to what it was last year.

can you list me points 1 through 7, of which you could reproduce with a human RIO please?

Thank you for putting this together, we can make this thread the central reporting thread for AWG-9 issues.

In that case, I want to link the following issue report here, as it got a bit buried where it is right now: https://forums.eagle.ru/showthread.php?p=4433245#post4433245

It's not really a broken function, but poor radar performance, which I doubt was that bad IRL (I could be wrong). I suspect this issue is responsible for quiet a lot of frustration people sometimes have with the AWG-9.

I quote the relevant posts about it below:

@Heatblur

I feel like the AWG-9 in TWS drops tracks and replaces them with a new track too easily.

 

For example: You're in a hot on duell with a single bandit. You have him on TWS, but then he starts cranking from one side to another and back again. Each time he changes the direction of his crank TWS momentarily drops the track and almost immediately creates a new track for the same bandit going in the other direction now.It seems like the AWG-9 doesn't understand that a bandit can change from flanking left to flanking right (or vice versa) pretty quickly. Instead it just assumes it is a new contact and assigns a new track to it and the old one gets lost.

This makes it very difficult to engage with Phoenixes in TWS, as the track which the Phoenix is going at, gets lost at each direction change of the bandit.

 

Maybe you guys can fine tune this a bit, so that the AWG-9 doesn't take a direction change of a contact for a new contact as easily?

I have the exact same experience. The bandit doesn't have to notch, a simpl jink lext or right is enough. I would think the track should be a bit more resilient and maybe be avle to correlate the old and the new as being the same...

IRL it's done essentially by putting an ellipse over the last or predicted position, and seeing if there is a hit within that ellipse. If it's there, you update the track. If not, you coast the track and try again.

 

With multiple tracks being close, you have to use additional parameters as well and use more coasting - so here an accurate radar is important.

 

The size of the ellipse is governed by a number of things, such as the time between sweeps, speed of the target and expected or overall possible maneuver.

 

But, how WELL it worked? Who knows

can you list me points 1 through 7, of which you could reproduce with a human RIO please?

From my rather extensive multicrew experience (several hundred hours as a RIO, mostly on big competitive public servers like Blue Flag with regular TacView analysis afterwards to see what actually happened) I can say the following:

1. Not being able to detect contacts that should be detected -- e.g., coming in hot at co-altitude

Never experienced this issue.

2. Dropping TWS lock IMMEDIATELY after launching Phoenix

Experienced this a lot. A lot of times (if not every time) this happened because of the issue I linked to in my previous post above. Usually the TWS track launched on disappears and immediately a new TWS track for the same bandit appears at the same place with a different bandit heading (bandit has changed direction to crank).

3. Dropping STT lock IMMEDIATELY after launching Phoenix

Can't recall ever experiencing this issue, but I usually launch Phoenixes in PSTT, as I find it more reliable than PDSTT.

4. Dropping TWS or STT lock IMMEDIATELY after launching Phoenix AND then switching to RWS (but can be switched back to TWS)

Can't say anything about this issue, as I, being the RIO, don't switch to RWS when I have a Phoenix in the air.

5. Dropping TWS or STT lock IMMEDIATELY after launching Phoenix, switching to RWS AND then refusing to switch back to TWS (though eventually after asking many times, you suddenly can get back to TWS and all seems to work again).

Can't say anything about this issue, as I, being the RIO, don't switch to RWS when I have a Phoenix in the air.

6. Dropping TWS or STT lock IMMEDIATELY after launching Phoenix , switching to RWS, refusing to switch back to TWS AND then Jester continuously spam/mashing keys blocking out all and any attempts to do anything with the radar (requires respawn).

Can't say anything about this issue, as I, being the RIO, don't switch to RWS when I have a Phoenix in the air.

7. Dropping TWS lock IMMEDIATELY after launching Phoenix AND then refusing to leave TWS mode (even after missile is long trashed, cycling through PAL/VSL mode etc.).

I never had issues to switch back to RWS after I launched a Phoenix in TWS, but I always wait with doing that until I think the missile has either been trashed or splashed its target.

thank you for organising the chaos! it feels like were at least progressing towards identifying the actual problems and moving past some people claiming its never happened to me therefore its never happened to you either/you dont know how to use the jet. (not heatblur btw)

the f14 right now is frustrating as hell to use because you never know whats going to happen. last night we had 3 in the air (i had a human rio) the 2 who had jester had an unusable jet due to the radar problems whereas mine worked well (apart from the heading tape being 15 degrees out which is a new 1 on me!)

can you list me points 1 through 7, of which you could reproduce with a human RIO please?

I mean, just read throught the thread I made "multiplayer performance" or go try it youself on a populated MP server. Literally takes maybe 10 minutes.

Thanks for all the extra info folks. I've updated the original post with notes on whether the issue is with human vs AI RIO. I've also added the known (and I believe already-fixed?) issue regarding the MLC for completeness, but maybe I should leave it out?

Another item I didnt see in the list above is

1) Jester stuck in TWS Auto with no active locks/contacts/missiles.

2) Subsequent shots after this behavior result in a TWS Launch without Time to Impact being displayed

https://forums.eagle.ru/showthread.php?t=282072

EDIT:

Something my Rio and I have been discussing. Sometimes tracks will fly off at odd angles at what seems like mach 5, only to be replaced with a track just underneath of where it used to be. Sometimes they just drop of and are immediately replaced. This only happens in Multiplayer.

Could it be possible the player you are TWS locking has some rubberbanding/lag and the radar interprets that as having them move between their two incorrectly reported locations? It may be determining through its logic that the de-sync'd player is actually two contacts, or has suddenly accelerated, etc.... and therefore causing an issue?

Another item I didnt see in the list above is

 

1) Jester stuck in TWS Auto with no active locks/contacts/missiles.

2) Subsequent shots after this behavior result in a TWS Launch without Time to Impact being displayed

 

https://forums.eagle.ru/showthread.php?t=282072

 

 

EDIT:

 

Something my Rio and I have been discussing. Sometimes tracks will fly off at odd angles at what seems like mach 5, only to be replaced with a track just underneath of where it used to be. Sometimes they just drop of and are immediately replaced. This only happens in Multiplayer.

 

Could it be possible the player you are TWS locking has some rubberbanding/lag and the radar interprets that as having them move between their two incorrectly reported locations? It may be determining through its logic that the de-sync'd player is actually two contacts, or has suddenly accelerated, etc.... and therefore causing an issue?

I've added your (2) to the original post list as (9). For (1), I can add that as a separate issue if you think that it is different from the OP (7) above, or if (7) is just a special case of this issue and can be reworded to include both.

With regards to your speculation regarding MP rubberbanding/lag --- you could definitely be on to something. I can only remember encountering any of the issues listed here (since the last patch) in MP. So maybe that would explain it?

EDIT:

 

Something my Rio and I have been discussing. Sometimes tracks will fly off at odd angles at what seems like mach 5, only to be replaced with a track just underneath of where it used to be. Sometimes they just drop of and are immediately replaced. This only happens in Multiplayer.

 

Could it be possible the player you are TWS locking has some rubberbanding/lag and the radar interprets that as having them move between their two incorrectly reported locations? It may be determining through its logic that the de-sync'd player is actually two contacts, or has suddenly accelerated, etc.... and therefore causing an issue?

That sounds like the issue I described here, although I don't think this is much of a lag problem, but rather a problem with a bandit cranking from one side to the other pretty quickly.

We have seen it with the bandit non-maneuvering holding a steady vector.

I'll have to track/record it and post it, but good to know others are having this problem, and im not alone.

We have seen it with the bandit non-maneuvering holding a steady vector.

Huh, now that's interesting.

Funny, but I haven't been seeing these issues; I had 4 engagements over 3 sorties last night with Jester only in our squad MP server against AI opponents.

Sortie 1; Vs 3x MiG-21, Bandit Angels 20, Friendly Angels 16. TWS lock maintained to 20-25 NM 2x AIM-54 fired and TWS tracked till active. Splash 2x MiG-21. Final MiG splashed with AIM-7MH in PAL.

Sortie 2; Vs 2x 2x MiG-23, Bandit Angels 20, Friendly Angels 16. TWS lock maintained to 20-25 NM 2x AIM-54 fired and TWS tracked till active. Splash 1x MiG-23. 1x AIM-54 spoofed/trashed. Remaining MiGs splashed with AIM-7MH/AIM-9/Guns in merge using VSL/PAL.

Sortie 3a: Vs 3x MiG-29, Bandit Angels 8, Friendly Angels 4. TWS lock maintained to 15-20 NM 3x AIM-54 fired and TWS tracked till active. Splash 2x MiG-29. 1x AIM-54 spoofed/trashed. Final MiG splashed with AIM-7MH in PAL.

Sortie 3b: Vs 3x MiG-25, Bandit Angels 20, Friendly Angels 16. TWS lock maintained to 15-20 NM 1x AIM-54 fired and TWS tracked till active. Splash 1x MiG-25. Final MiGs splashed with AIM-9/Guns in merge using VSL/PAL.

I'm not for a minute saying you guys are not experiencing the issues you are - rather just observing that there is some strange inconsistency occurring.

As a side note, many of us have been seeing de-sync issues in the same server when attacking ground targets - when you destroy a ground target the position of the wreckage jumps about 10-15m away from the position shown to you of the unit when it was alive? I wonder if this has some part to play, particularly in PvP?

Funny, but I haven't been seeing these issues; I had 4 engagements over 3 sorties last night with Jester only in our squad MP server against AI opponents.

Interesting, and thanks for the feedback.

I wonder, now that you have established that your setup is issue free when facing AI opponents, if you could run something similar against humans in MP?

The speculation above that lag/rubberbanding causing jumps in player position, leading the the logic of the AWG getting really confused seems (to naive me) quite credible and a promising cause. Maybe only players are subject to the same (quantity/quantum) jumps due to lagspikes ?

The speculation above that lag/rubberbanding causing jumps in player position, leading the the logic of the AWG getting really confused seems (to naive me) quite credible and a promising cause. Maybe only players are subject to the same (quantity/quantum) jumps due to lagspikes ?

Or maybe players just maneuver more than the AI and thus giving the AWG-9 a harder time to keep track.

Or maybe players just maneuver more than the AI and thus giving the AWG-9 a harder time to keep track.

These problems occur even with non-maneuvering contacts (as established in either TacView or simply because we can see what the contact is doing through datalink). So, no, this is not it.

Rubber banding could definitely cause issues here. There's no way in mitigating that, however this should be rare, and you would generally notice a laggy server environment, warping players and so, and it would likely affect other radars as well.

Or maybe players just maneuver more than the AI and thus giving the AWG-9 a harder time to keep track.

Just to put this notion to complete rest once and for all ...

• 
   
  
• Got on to a busy MP server tonight. Got up to 40K, mach 1.2. Tracking contact on TWS. Nice and solid, coming in hot. Waited till about 30nm. Then master arm on, got hot tirgger, press the trigger.
   
  Just as the 3 second countdown finishes, the radar mode switches to RWS Jester switches the radar to RWS even as the missile is coming off the rails. I mean we go to RWS before I see the missile in front of me.
   
  Cannot switch back to TWS for a while (Jester keeps switch back to RWS), but soon after, RWS picks up contacts again, and sure enough, the same contact is in the same place going the same direction.
   
  So, no, absolutely not --- this is not the target maneuverin, either consciously in response to the missile (which there was no way he could have detected) or coincidentally.
   
  I'm pretty sure that in all other cases I have had the drop-of-contact-on-Phoenix launch it has been co-occuring like this (i.e.if not simultaneously than near enough with the launch to preclude target manouevering.)
  

• Also note that both in this case and in many of the others there were numerous contacts being tracked, friendly and otherwise. So if it was target maneuvering causing this, then ALL of them would have had to notched/cranked/changed direction at the same time, immediately/simultaneously/coincidentally as a Phoenix launch. That simply is not a credible conjecture.
   
  

and you would generally notice a laggy server environment, warping players and so, and it would likely affect other radars as well.

Which is usually not the case when I expect the issue of TWS track loss, that gets immediately replaced by another trackfile for the same contact with a different own heading.

Just as the 3 second countdown finishes, the radar mode switches to RWS Jester switches the radar to RWS even as the missile is coming off the rails. I mean we go to RWS before I see the missile in front of me.

 

 

Cannot switch back to TWS for a while (Jester keeps switch back to RWS), but soon after, RWS picks up contacts again, and sure enough, the same contact is in the same place going the same direction.

Ok, this makes it more clear now, because then you're talking about a totally different issue than I do (starting with post #5 in this thread), as in the issue I'm talking about I will stay in TWS exclusively. No switching back to RWS.

Your issue sounds like a Jester issue. I can't say anything about that as I'm usually playing as a RIO myself and have no Jester experience.

I hope these issues get ironed out in the next update.

So, I've updated the original list with a new observation that actually replicates some of the symptoms previous described, but puts a different interpretation on them:

[*] (Jester RIO only) (Alternate interpretation of 4-6 above) Switching to RWS immediately after or simultaneous as launching Phoenix (resulting in all TWS tracks being dropped), sometimes followed by refusing to switch back to TWS, and this in turn sometimes followed by mashing the RWS keys.

This is based on: https://forums.eagle.ru/showpost.php?p=4448873&postcount=1