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Mustang survival?


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So you're flying alone online, and a 109 or a 190 comes at you. What do you do?

 

You can't outrun them

You can't outdive them (not for long)

You can't outturn them

You definitely can't outclimb them

 

So?

 

I usually try some high speed scissors, but eventually they will hit my wing and thus blow my governor (!) and then I'm a sitting duck.

 

Is there any way NOT to end up a burning wreckage near Bayeux?

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Yes there is, FWs have a similar turning rate so you can turn fight it, then it's the one with more skills and know-how wins.

 

And if done right, you can outrun the 109, but it will be hard, so best thing there is to get someone to help you and hope he runs out of mw-50. Or try to be high when you merge with one...

 

Just my personal experience when flying the pony, 109 and 190.


Edited by razo+r
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So you're flying alone online, and a 109 or a 190 comes at you. What do you do?

 

You can't outrun them

You can't outdive them (not for long)

You can't outturn them

You definitely can't outclimb them

 

So?

 

I usually try some high speed scissors, but eventually they will hit my wing and thus blow my governor (!) and then I'm a sitting duck.

 

Is there any way NOT to end up a burning wreckage near Bayeux?

 

I was able to outrun 109s many times, even tho it's not really recommended to keep the engine at take off power all the time (I mean, 61 MAP, 3000RPM), I was able to outrun 109s in the past, they don't seem to be interested in trying to catch up a Mustang just for a kill, and using their entire MW-50 tank just for that. Dora is a little bit difference though, they can and will catch you up quite easily, but you can definitely out-turn the 190. It just depends on the pilot experience.

 

if you happen to see an experienced pilot, all I can imagine is trying to run to a safer airspace with allies or even a friendly airfield, looking for AAA cover.

 

Even if the 109 is able to catch you up, the difference in speed will be so small that you'll have time to run a bit to a safer location, or maybe not...

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You can outdive both, not from 1000ft of course.

If you have at least 5000ft you can outrun Bf, not Fw, but You outturn Fw with Mustang.

 

I always fly alone and I always do not use 67inHg, am not ace, but IMO Mustang can and do win against these Luftwaffe planes.

Mustang is better in turning fight than both LW planes in fast flight, it is really bad idea to try fight against them if You are low and slow. If You are alone in that situation, You will die.

Actually Mustang performs better than both at hight speed nearly in everything.

 

But my flight are mostly long, or longer than others, I try to reach some altitude and position advantage before I accept fight.

 

I know it is sometimes painful with Mustang if You are alone, but it is not connected with plane performance. If I can get You advice, stay hight and fast and You will see :thumbup: .

 

It is my experience from DoW, BS servers.

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P-51 pilots must simply accept that they are at a competitive disadvantage in normal multiplayer engagements until 72" WEP rating is introduced, if ever. This doesn't mean that you cannot be successful in a P-51, only that you cannot be successful in a "mirror" situation against a 109 or 109s. ("Mirror" meaning that it's a co-everything engagement, i.e. equal numbers, equal energy states, similar pilot skill pools, etc., with the aircraft being the only major variable.)


Edited by Echo38
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Thanks for all the advice!

 

I recently bought the Dora and I was surprised how bad a turner it was. So next time I won't go fully defensive and try a few turns. Yesterday I also managed to outrun a 109. I dove away at full power and he deemed it too risky to wait and catch up with me.

 

I also noticed that the 109's roll rate is horrible at higher speeds so that can also be used.

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Okay, So we've established that in a mirror situation the Mustang is at the Mercy of the 109. Then why is the instant mission for the DCS Mustang "dogfight" on the Normandy map VS two 109's and not the FW190?

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You can make another mission...

 

And... I think their skill is random so... keep trying :)

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Usually, the plane with less fuel wins..

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  • 2 months later...

Wonder if this tactic works. Never tried myself. In a situation when 109 follows you into a dive, build up your speed first. After, I believe it's 350mph, do a quick pitch up into a zoom. But don't stay in zoom for too long, otherwise it turns into a sustained climb, in which 109 usually wins. Zoom briefly then roll back down toward him. I remember back in IL2 days, AI fw190s use this type of tactic against my spitfires. If I am on its tail, it immediate flips into a power dive. I follow then he stays in dive for a bit until both speed built up to really fast. At the point, spitfire became sluggish in high speed, but Fw suddenly pitched into a zoom. I often find it very hard to follow.

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So, it seems that the P-51D is out-classed in several areas. I am considering buying my first WWII DCS Plane. Clearly, that first plane should not be a P-51D. What then should I buy? 190, or 109?

 

You only want to fly the best plane? Why not accept a challenge and fly an American plane.

Buzz

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my god... the people always poo pooing the 51 drive me crazy. I will always argue pilot skill is the first factor in every engagement. then you look at dissimilar attributes - who has more altitude/less fuel/acceleration/momentum/more or less E? If I have less fuel than a 109 or more altitude, I can usually dominate the fight long enough to land hits and mitigate any powerplant advantages quickly. If the 109 has less fuel and more E then things are much harder.

 

every engagement is going to have more than a few factors at play. I say buy the plane you are interested in and learn to fly it. Fly the plane you have - not the plane you expect.... its the only way you will be happy in ANY online flight sim. Expectations will always be your biggest enemy

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You only want to fly the best plane? Why not accept a challenge and fly an American plane.

 

I want to buy the best first DCS WWII plane.

So, I am asking what's the best one to start with?

If that plane is a P-51, Spit, or whatever. I am asking those who know more than i do on this topic.

Not pooping on the P-51.


Edited by Gpruitt54
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good on you then. I'd say pick the plane you are most passionate about. one that suits your flying style. I personally like the 51 but will happily fly the 109 when sides are imbalanced.

 

I like the 51 because it is iconic. I like the gunsight too.. the mechanical computed lead is deadly. I also really like the ability to run the 51 on ground attack missions. You cant really do that with the axis planes at the moment.

 

Also - i like the 51 because i like to fly high. and up in the clouds it can really hold its own against the 109.

 

Now the 109 i like for pure BnZ as do i with the 190. when the bombers are truley in the game with proper defense, I'll really enjoy flying the 109 on proper interdiction missions to attack the box formations.

 

each is a little different. try to invest where your expectations won't spoil your fun and you have the appreciation for the airframe to really learn how to use it in DCS. Fly the plane you buy/have... not the one you expect.

 

Cheers and good luck.

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Mustang might be a good first plane for someone who doesn't have experience with DCS props, because it's also the easiest one to taxi, takeoff, fly and land.

 

Not much use out of a German hot rod, if you'll die of frustration trying to get it off the ground :D. Something to consider.

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Yeah what Dooom said... I don’t really feel outclassed flying the mustang. Even if you take it into a dogfight where it apparently has the flying qualities of a school bus if you ask some people around here, you can still out turn it out roll 90+ % of 109 pilots in game.

9./JG27

 

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Mustang might be a good first plane for someone who doesn't have experience with DCS props, because it's also the easiest one to taxi, takeoff, fly and land.

 

Not much use out of a German hot rod, if you'll die of frustration trying to get it off the ground :D. Something to consider.

 

I completely agree on that, it's very good advice.

 

I started with the P-51 and found it a bit hard... until I tried the Bf-109 and the Fw-190 which both gleefully killed me on so many awkward occasions :D Now it's fine of course, but the learning curve puts the P-51 in very good position.

 

It's an awesome airplane on many levels, even if it doesn't have the same aura as the Spitfire or the Bf109. And it also has a fairly good DLC campaign - on sales too, which is not the case for the others (I know there is a nice campaign for the Spit, but it's for DCS 2 which I currently don't consider as stable or even playable on regular computers).

 

You can't be disappointed :) You can have a preview with the free TF-51, but know that the P-51D is much more polished (textures, has weapons, fixed the switch logic, and so on).

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  • 1 month later...
my god... the people always poo pooing the 51 drive me crazy. I will always argue pilot skill is the first factor in every engagement. then you look at dissimilar attributes - who has more altitude/less fuel/acceleration/momentum/more or less E? If I have less fuel than a 109 or more altitude, I can usually dominate the fight long enough to land hits and mitigate any powerplant advantages quickly. If the 109 has less fuel and more E then things are much harder.

 

every engagement is going to have more than a few factors at play. I say buy the plane you are interested in and learn to fly it. Fly the plane you have - not the plane you expect.... its the only way you will be happy in ANY online flight sim. Expectations will always be your biggest enemy

 

You must be a very good P-51 pilot which might justify the tone of your post.

 

I've flown online quite a lot lately, and when I met a 109 on equal terms in my 'stang I was ALWAYS shot down. It was only a matter of time, whatever I did, they did better. conversely, when I'm in a 109 the Mustang driver's skill only affects the time: They're ablaze after 1 minute instead of 20 seconds. Yes, pilot skill IS a factor, but unless the 109 pilot is a complete beginner you stand very little chance.

 

Accurate engine power (71") and the new DM might level the playing field a bit more. Not that I want equal terms, no. It's a sim. It's just that I never heard of a Bloody April in 1944-45.

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Accurate engine power (71") and the new DM might level the playing field a bit more. Not that I want equal terms, no. It's a sim. It's just that I never heard of a Bloody April in 1944-45.

 

 

You are correct, however there are more factors that we need to simulate; the way these a/c were actually employed in 1944 - 1945. Keeping the Mustang at high alt and not getting drawn down to low alt is one factor in survival. During the last year of the war the Mustang reputation that we are thinking of flew a lot of high alt escort missions and given numbers, trg and alt it excelled at that mission when other allied a/c could not get to the tgt.

 

Even after Doolittle took over 8th AF; the point of the escort was to stay with the bombers and destroy fighters. They only went down to the deck pre-Doolittle in France and during the build up to D-Day, when there were less than 200 operational fighters in the entire theater of operations to oppose them. After OP Pointblank until the end of the war, they would drop down on the way home when released from escort duty and the withdrawal support sorties had replaced them and there really was no fighter opposition to strafe targets of opportunity.

 

The second factor was numbers. While the Luftwaffe could achieve local numbers to attack a raid, Mustang numbers were increased to deal with it, going from 12 planes per squadron on ops to 16 officially and even 18 or more if they could manage on a big raid. Flying with a wingman makes a huge difference. Mostly I see a big furball of lone wolf pilots in a free for all.

 

Last major factor was the skill difference. USAF pilots were getting more experience and better trg as the war progressed and were increasingly facing more and more new pilots with few hours. The surviving experten were a nasty surprise I'm sure to those pilots who became complacent. Those pilots who are in squadrons who fly with a disciplined wingman who knows his job and can fly flight and communicate seem to do well with the Mustang.

 

In most servers there is no reason for Axis fighters to climb to alt, no bombers to intercept, only airfields to vulch, fr ground tgts to defend or en tgts to strafe. Once 2.5 is out and someone starts a proper campaign where the Axis must come up and fight to achieve its mission I think you will find that the Mustang is feared. Just stay at alt with a wingman who knows his job and don't get tempted to dive after someone to the deck. When peoples objective in the server is to accomplish the mission and is no longer racking up the stats, it will be very good at accomplishing the mission.

 

Is the Mustang we have currently the correct one that was in the ETO? No, would the proposed changes improve performance and more correctly simulate the performance that the Mustang had in theatre? Yes it would more accurately simulate the a/c assigned to 8th AF but not 9th, it is closer to what we have now. Will these improvements make a difference? Maybe, in the furball servers that we have today, but you still won't catch a K-4 on the deck or out turn it.

 

Like doom says:

Fly the plane you buy/have... not the one you expect.

I would add "in the environment it was designed to operate".

 

Try flying a Mustang like a K-4 against a real K-4 and you will most likely not be successful.

 

I took your Overlord - Mustang Ace mission and converted it to multiplayer and ran it on my server for a while. Four of us would take off in Mustangs and escort the B-17s at altitude. Random players would join and fly the Fw-190 or Bf-109 plus AI. We were normally successful and knocked down a lot of human players flying the K-4.

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It's just that I never heard of a Bloody April in 1944-45.

 

Because 1v1 encounters rarely happened. The Luftwaffe were tasked with knocking down the waves of B-17s while the P-51s were tasked with chasing them away. Neither was seeking out random 1v1 encounters.

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