Introducing the VPC MongoosT-50

Something I like about the Warthog throttle is the integration of the finger gates. It's more than likely that I'm wrong, but my understanding is that they simply cut off access to certain portions of the axis. Again, this is speculation on my part because I don't own a set, but if this is true, that's fine for the top end and being able to control afterburner. On the other hand, it occurs to me that the gates would only restrict access to idle power on the low end.

If it's not too much trouble for too little gain, my suggestion is this: I would like to see the finger gates implemented in such a way that they would be useable during startup and shutdown procedures. In other words, when at the very bottom of the axis the throttle is locked out of the running range of the engines and lifting the gates and pushing forward would bring the engine to the idle position. Conversely, lifting the gates and pulling the throttle behind the idle would result in engine shutdown.

I feel the urge to give my disclaimer again. Not being an owner of a Thrust Master Warthog throttle, I've just provided a lot of speculation on its capabilities. If anyone can confirm or debunk my speculation that would be helpful.

I own the TM WH throttle and it's not bad. What I don't like:

1. the switches forward from the RH throttle lever are difficult to find/access.

2. The slew control is difficult to use when you need accuracy and speed.

3. The thing is awfully heavy. Probably good when it's just sitting on top of your desk, but a nuisance when you put it on desk brackets. For people who want it heavy, you might use optional steel plates as "ballast".

4. Lack of pushbuttons and toggle switches in the base (I have bought a FLT2 button box from DSD to fill the gap).

What I would like:

More axis controls in the base.

A challenge: make the throttle so that, between the T-50 and the future throttle, you can fly the AJS37 Viggen with all its weapon and sensor systems inc. Radar Stick and RB05 Stick.

That's a good resume of the TM throttles weak points and the few features it is lacking. :thumbup:

I would emphasize on :

- A quality slew control that is useable

- A couple more axis would be very handy (binocular zoom etc)

- Throttle should feel solid and planted (No wobble left & right on the gaz handles)

- Throttle friction control to customize travel resistance

- A tad more ergonomic handles if possible (our hands will rest on it for hundreds of hours)

- Weight and size to a minimum

- Aluminum/metal wherever possible if it makes sense

what will be approximate price for the T-50 base without the grip?

The throttle is still in development so we want to hear from you guys how we can make it as epic as possible! Keep the ideas rolling in!

I want this!

(Taken from here https://forums.eagle.ru/showthread.php?t=184572)

Seriously. Something like that would be epic.

I'd love a good analog thumbstick... Probably a swear word for the more die hard sim only folk, but it'd be nice to have it useful for space stuff too...

Z...

Something I like about the Warthog throttle is the integration of the finger gates. .....

I didn't realize this was referred to as "finger gates"; never stop learning!

I removed the ones at the upper end (afterburner) right away as I was flying the A-10C and that plane certainly does not need anything to restrict power!

But also for other aircraft I don't see the need for the upper limit.

However I certainly use the switches for the IDLE/OFF command during the start-up and shut-down procedure. And the "bump" here is necessary so you don't switch your engines off inadvertently in the middle of the action.

For most aircraft, the contact needs to close when you transition from OFF to IDLE. The ones in the TM WH throttle do the opposite (because the hog wants it that way). So I had to change the "default.lua" (or equivalent file for specific controllers) to reverse the command in the F5-E, FW-190D and probably some more I forgot. Not a big deal but might confuse some people. Maybe there is a simple solution...

I didn't realize this was referred to as "finger gates"; never stop learning!

I removed the ones at the upper end (afterburner) right away as I was flying the A-10C and that plane certainly does not need anything to restrict power!

But also for other aircraft I don't see the need for the upper limit.

However I certainly use the switches for the IDLE/OFF command during the start-up and shut-down procedure. And the "bump" here is necessary so you don't switch your engines off inadvertently in the middle of the action.

For most aircraft, the contact needs to close when you transition from OFF to IDLE. The ones in the TM WH throttle do the opposite (because the hog wants it that way). So I had to change the "default.lua" (or equivalent file for specific controllers) to reverse the command in the F5-E, FW-190D and probably some more I forgot. Not a big deal but might confuse some people. Maybe there is a simple solution...

Don't consider me an authoritative source on the "finger gates" thing. I think I've seen them referred to as such, but I'm using the term here because it's descriptive.

And the warthog does have idle/off switching at the low end of the axis. Ok, that's what I really wanted to know. Thanks for confirming that.

Sent from my XT1585 using Tapatalk

In Western fighters they're usually referred to as "finger lifts."

That "slew" will be not more practical for control in thumb than in index finger (like is in TmW)?

Notice that some desired throttle hardware features need proper support in games, see for example the discussion about add second button in foldable trigger of MCG grip.

In DCS this button will had use for Ka-50 (Mig-15, Bf 109), because in game the trigger operation "mimic" the operation of real trigger, but not for Fw 190 (same trigger of Mig-15, Bf 109), Mig-21 - planes that had foldable trigger - wheres trigger operation is done in a more "gamey" way.

I hope you take the best of all HOTASes and make a robust and useful one.

I had X52s, Cougar and now G940.

In the throttles quadrant I (would) like the following.

- let the pots die and go for HAL or other magnetic sensors.

- make it from start easy to service by user. Don't create complicated wiring and bends. Create smart access holes. Ideally the buttons should come out as a unit and you should be able to swap them even with a Hat.

- make it from start with possibility of modding. Don't be afraid. Modding might give you a boost in sales and take away some costs in details that can be added by user at his own expenses (it's good for everybody actually)

- make it modular from start. Create the possibility to add new modules later or interchange them. Not only buttons could be upgraded or swaped from plain buttons to Hats but even the base should have place for extensions or replacements.

- if possible put a mode switch like G940 and X52 have BUT!! Make that mode switch go to different directx buttons not some driver mombo-jombo that is only useful if you lose your life creating profiles for some intricate keyboard combos. What I mean by that is if you have 32 switches on the Throttles and they are called VPCThrottle00 Btn1, 2, 3 ,4... ,31, 32. Make it that when you switch that mode switch go to VPCThrottle01 Btn1, 2, 3 ,4... ,31, 32.

I know there is a limit on how many buttons/axes you can have on a directinput device. Make the "mode switch" switch to a different device at least on buttons if the axes might get complicated (they need to be active, etc)

- put at least two axis ergonomically placed but 3 could be even better. One like G940 has and it seems you also have in plan for your throttle. The one between the two levers. One horizontal axis like X52 (this one has it as a slider) and G940 has. These axes are good for Zoom, target span etc. The third axis would be nice to be at the pinkie finger.

here are some illustrations

I wouldn't mind for a Russian design of the throttles, the roundiness and the fact that they slide on the wall rather than turning on the console. but... maybe is too complicated and not good for start.

Ch throttle is pretty good I think, coolies, boat switches, little joystick,

or this :)

http://simhq.com/forum/ubbthreads.php/topics/3195621/1

I'd like a non wobbly warthog throttle with a decent slew controller and one extra rotary on the left throttle to mimic the F-15C antenna elevation control. Handles that bolt onto the throttle and can be unplugged and swapped out in a minute or two would also be great.

Some people are for and some are against mechanical throttle idle and afterburner detents. The real planes have them, but so far due to bad HOTAS components was not exactly popular among the gamers.

- if possible put a mode switch like G940 and X52 have BUT!! Make that mode switch go to different directx buttons not some driver mombo-jombo that is only useful if you lose your life creating profiles for some intricate keyboard combos. What I mean by that is if you have 32 switches on the Throttles and they are called VPCThrottle00 Btn1, 2, 3 ,4... ,31, 32. Make it that when you switch that mode switch go to VPCThrottle01 Btn1, 2, 3 ,4... ,31, 32.

I know there is a limit on how many buttons/axes you can have on a directinput device. Make the "mode switch" switch to a different device at least on buttons if the axes might get complicated (they need to be active, etc)

Is this really necessary? The only thing needed IMHO is that the mode switch positions are seen as DirectX buttons (like they are on Saitek sticks, but not on the G940 where the mode switch can only be seen by their pretty poor software) so you can assign them as modifiers in e.g. DCSW.

Also, why is the thumb mouse-axis useless on Saitek throttles? I think it's a pretty handy control to have, but on the X52/Pro they used some cheap components so you have to adjust the deadzones to make them usable. On the more expensive X65F it works much better out of the box (the only unusable thing about it is that you can press it for an extra button, but that's almost impossible to do without moving it in some direction).

I also wouldn't call the Saitek throttle rotaries "useless", but, I'd agree that it would be better to place them inside the throttle like on the Logitech G940.

what will be approximate price for the T-50 base without the grip?

The standalone VPC MT-50 base will be €179.95

@ Dudikoff

For Axis I think DirectInput has a limitation to 8 and iirc for buttons is 32. If you have multiple 8 way Hats you will hit that limit pretty fast. That's why for example G940 is split in 3 controllers (sure the pedals have no buttons but you get the idea).

If you are using a true mode switcher that only enables new stand alone directinput buttons that need no software to reprogram is a better idea to move them to different controllers if is to keep it as open to evolution as possible and also as simple as possible.

For the user it will be a very small difference and no issues normally. Just the name of the button will be different.

As for Saitek's rotaries. They are not placed in an ergonomic fashion and they will take precious space. A slider or a sunk rotary is much easier to operate and place somewhere without creating problems for Hats or other buttons..

Sure... this is only my opinion.

Having the base modular would a good idea. So you could quickly and easily add on sections like a radio for instance or an emergency panel that you'd sell separately.

If you are using a true mode switcher that only enables new stand alone directinput buttons that need no software to reprogram is a better idea to move them to different controllers if is to keep it as open to evolution as possible and also as simple as possible.

IMHO, having multiple controllers for each mode would be an unecessary hassle and might not be supported by many games. Just because Logitech used it, it doesn't mean it's ideal, especially given their unfinished drivers and software for that abandoned product.

I think Saitek's solution with separate DirectX buttons for each of the mode selector's positions is simpler and more efficient as the modes can be used either through their software or directly in games which support defining modifiers (like e.g. DCSW does). And if you don't want multiple modes, you can thus easily program the mode selection switch for a different purpose either through the software or directly in the game.

Logitech G940 mode switch is pretty useless on the other hand as it's not visible as a DX button and their software is terrible IMHO (IIRC, sometimes short button presses won't be recognized in DCSW, etc.).

TM Target also presents its controllers as a single device for the same reason (and I'd expect the CH software to do the same).

So, what you're asking for here would IMHO be a step back, not forward.

As for Saitek's rotaries. They are not placed in an ergonomic fashion and they will take precious space. A slider or a sunk rotary is much easier to operate and place somewhere without creating problems for Hats or other buttons.. Sure... this is only my opinion.

As I said, I agree that their position could be more ergonomic, but that doesn't make them "useless".

Does DCS World really allow 64 buttons in a HID device?

The DSD web site http://www.derekspearedesigns.com/64-button-no-matrix-controller.html

states "Also note carefully that only the racing titles iRacing and Assetto Corsa, rFactor2 (Build 906+) and the flight sim DCS World will utilize game devices with 64 button inputs."

I wonder if that's correct. If it is then we could in fact have 32 button inputs duplicated with a "Mode" switch. But I don't really believe it.

Personally I'm happy with 32 switches on the throttle. Even with that it's going to be difficult to decide which kind of switches to put on the base and what mix. (ON/OFF maintained, push buttons, momentary toggle switches (1-way or 2-way)rotary encoders...)

For example, the base of the TM WH throttle has a set of switches (mostly maintained ON/OFF), optimized for the hog. These switches are much less practical for other aircraft. The KA-50 for example uses mostly pushbuttons and the switches on the TM WH base do me very little good. Rather than expecting all switching input to come from the HOTAS, I believe the combination of HOTAS and button box(es) makes better sense. I currently use a DSD FLT2 button box which gives me 6 maintained ON/OFF, 6 momentary 2-way toggles, 7 push buttons and 2 rotary encoders.

For Axis I think DirectInput has a limitation to 8 and iirc for buttons is 32.

That limitation changed, with the introduction of DirectInput 8, to 128 buttons. I can't find the reference in the MSDN docs but here is a quote from a dev forum.

I noticed that DIJOYSTATE2 supports 128 buttons, and DIJOYSTATE supports 32. I can tell the joysticks I'm working with appear to be operating under the constraints of DIJOYSTATE, but the code I've written (since 2002-ish) has always used DIJOYSTATE2 and works on older devices just fine. It seems obvious that one was meant to support more elaborate controllers and DIJOYSTATE2 has been there since DirectInput8

https://www.gamedev.net/topic/611459-directx-button-limit/

Unfortunately, it seems that hardware devs have coded things using the standards of the older API.

Here is a joystick controller, designed by a forum user, which allows the use of all 128 buttons.

https://forums.eagle.ru/showthread.php?t=80201

The DSD web site http://www.derekspearedesigns.com/64-button-no-matrix-controller.html

states "Also note carefully that only the racing titles iRacing and Assetto Corsa, rFactor2 (Build 906+) and the flight sim DCS World will utilize game devices with 64 button inputs."

I wonder if that's correct.

Yes, DCSW see up to 128 buttons per controller - even if Windows Games Controller see only 32 for this controller.

IL-2: BOS/M see up to 64 buttons per controller.

Don't know if axes number remain in 8 per controller.

Due the use of different standards by games producers, is difficult for joystick maker allow this 128 buttons, example VKB Gladiator ~13 physical buttons can use up to 52 DX buttons with Mode button + Shift, but for certain games the buttons above 32 will be not see and people will complain that buttons are DOA (see Amazon "reviews" about their pink button), so they limit this in standard profile for 29 buttons.

What is important is to make it work without having to use software to program a button to do keyboard combos. If the game supports 128 buttons then it might be just enough. If Directinput supports now more than 8 axis then is again good... but if it doesn't... my hotas has 14 axis I think.

Yes, DCSW see up to 128 buttons per controller - even if Windows Games Controller see only 32 for this controller.

 

Wow! Thanks for this information, Sokol!

The standalone VPC MT-50 base will be €179.95

Really makes me rethink the Gunfighter. Is VAT included in that price?

Really makes me rethink the Gunfighter. Is VAT included in that price?

These prices are ex VAT!