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nose down trim to low?


Little_D

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Hi gents,

 

and a nother question, sorry for that.

 

Is it normal, that the 109 is to fly with max trim down to stay straight?

Even with 1.05 ATA by 2000 rpms in cruise mode the nose whants to go up.

 

Also i saw in the menu 2 sliders for elevator and rudder trim? For what and how to use it?

 

regards

 

Little_D

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German translation is wrong, the Slider it is Aileron and rudder adjustment over the trim taps only can be done by ground crew.

There is "no" elevator Trim

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Try manual prop pitch and cruise at 1.15 ATA for 2000RPM, or 1.35 ATA for 2400 RPM. Perhaps placebo but to me it eases up on the necessary trim

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Try manual prop pitch and cruise at 1.15 ATA for 2000RPM, or 1.35 ATA for 2400 RPM. Perhaps placebo but to me it eases up on the necessary trim
Not at all, you made a point. The issue with pitch up tendency is related to engine torque, hence using a proper engine settings/cruise speed really helps in tackling with it.

 

 

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Not at all, you made a point. The issue with pitch up tendency is related to engine torque, hence using a proper engine settings/cruise speed really helps in tackling with it.

 

 

S!

 

Ala13, I believe you mean Gyroscopic effect.

 

Gyro and P-factor in DCS World aircraft are tuned in a way that I find in no other flight simulator I have used, with the only exception being the first version of Flight Unlimited ( released around 1995 ! ).

 

As your aircraft takes of at higher power settings, the tendency to swing to the left, and specially while the pilot keeps the wings level as much as possible, results in a necessary pitch up due to gyroscopic effect.

 

P-factor plays a similar role inflight when you make power adjustments while cruising and use rudder ( or rudder trim in the P51d ) to coordinate.

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You could get additional nose down trim by using some flaps but compensate with more RPM reducing your time up there.

 

 

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You could get additional nose down trim by using some flaps but compensate with more RPM reducing your time up there.

I usually find setting ATA and RPM around the recommended cruise settings (1.15/2000 and 1.35/2400) is enough.

Never used flaps in cruise flight.

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As a side note, I read in some WWII book that German pilots prefered to fly with a little forward stick pressure anyway, as that would allow them to transition to a turning fight without having to change the elevator trim...

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As a side note, I read in some WWII book that German pilots prefered to fly with a little forward stick pressure anyway, as that would allow them to transition to a turning fight without having to change the elevator trim...

 

 

 

interesting. which book?

 

 

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Fat T is above, thin T is below. Long T is faster, Short T is slower. Open triangle is AWACS, closed triangle is your own sensors. Double dash is friendly, Single dash is enemy. Circle is friendly. Strobe is jammer. Strobe to dash is under 35 km. HDD is 7 times range key. Radar to 160 km, IRST to 10 km. Stay low, but never slow.

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Ala13, I believe you mean Gyroscopic effect
Well, yes, you know I say ‘�torque’ to summarise the four aspects involved in there, not just pure torque.

 

 

S!

"I went into the British Army believing that if you want peace you must prepare for war. I believe now that if you prepare for war, you get war."

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interesting. which book?

 

Can't remember exactly, but most likely in either "The first and the last" by Adolf Galland, or "The German Aces speak" by Colin D. Heaton.

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well I hope its in Galland's book because I'm reading it now. Now you got me itching to hit the search button.

 

 

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AWAITING ED NEW DAMAGE MODEL IMPLEMENTATION FOR WW2 BIRDS

 

Fat T is above, thin T is below. Long T is faster, Short T is slower. Open triangle is AWACS, closed triangle is your own sensors. Double dash is friendly, Single dash is enemy. Circle is friendly. Strobe is jammer. Strobe to dash is under 35 km. HDD is 7 times range key. Radar to 160 km, IRST to 10 km. Stay low, but never slow.

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It has not only to do with the engine. You can notice this continues uppitch tendency even with throttle at idle/dead engine with full fuel and MW50.

 

Stab trim also seems to have little effect on it since it's only appearing at certain pitch angles (most noticeably during climb).

 

Interesting note 5tuka, and I believe it's very important. I too notice an interrelation, sometimes, between it and AoA / sideslip.

 

I wonder, nonetheless, if it may somehow relate to the way some prop effects, namely p-factor, are modelled in DCS World.

 

In cruise, with your aircraft properly trimmed for almost null stick force ( for pitch ) but with the aircraft flying wings level but in a sideslip, using rudder to coordinate will translate to a significant pitching up moment, that, if left on it's own will easily bring the 109 to a loop!

 

Mind that during this strange situation, you need / should not touch throttle or prop. I believe I've tried only with automatic prop pitch, so I will try to make sure the same is observed with manual prop pitch, which is now what I use most of the time.

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  • ED Team

1.1 ata, revs scheduled (auto), the IAS is maximal in level flight for this setting.

This is trimmed cruise.

Ніщо так сильно не ранить мозок, як уламки скла від розбитих рожевих окулярів

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1.1 ata, revs scheduled (auto), the IAS is maximal in level flight for this setting.

This is trimmed cruise.

 

Thx Yo-Yo.

 

I now actually use manual prop pitch most of the time, from takeoff to landing and even in dogfight. Will try at 1.1, see what revs it choses, and then use manual pitch to attain that same revolution and see if speed varies :-)

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This topic keeps coming up. My understanding based on what what I've read here is the 109 (certainly later models) were flown with flight stick pushed forward (nose down) for level flight (typically). This is how it was and is why it's modelled in the 109K. There are a bunch of threads discussing it and as such the information is spread a little.

 

Yo-Yo did post a graph (from a 109G2) showing flight stick position data which I believe helps to demonstrate the need for the stick to be maintained forward and/or the need for nose down trim in the 109. Hope I'm ok to re-post it with link to original thread below:

 

trim-effectiveness_zpsemfcefuc.png

 

Image linked from Yo-Yo's original post here:

https://forums.eagle.ru/showpost.php?p=2455383&postcount=8


Edited by Bounder

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Guys..this is getting ridiculous.. The ppl complaining about the nose-up behaviour haven't flown the bird for too much time.. I got used to it (as well with the Flanker's behaviour) after buying the proper equipment and having a lot of patience.. this is what it gives its personality.. the bad side is that I broke (and repaired 2x) the trim buttons on my X55. Don't buy the Saitek X55 btw..

 

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slight, I mean very slight, rudder input to keep ball centered, and I find a slight pitch down moment causing need to trim nose up ... with trim nose up +1, little or no flap for t/o. configured for cruise @ 440- 50kph 1.0 ata 1800-2000 rpms hands off cruise steer with feet. full fuel or not, drop or not. but that's just me

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Interesting note 5tuka, and I believe it's very important. I too notice an interrelation, sometimes, between it and AoA / sideslip.

 

I wonder, nonetheless, if it may somehow relate to the way some prop effects, namely p-factor, are modelled in DCS World.

It certainly is. I've tested this behaviour extensively at different speeds, engine settings, rudder input and controller configs. Appling right rudder does raise the nose which in a climb at a certain AoA results in a steady increase of lift ("auto loop"). However, I wasn't able to really nail this issue down on a certain cause (otherwise I had composed a proper report.

 

Anyway, it's unlikely well come to a satisfactory conclusion and I've given up spending more energy on this topic even thoug I really like the DCS K4 in all of it's aspects but this.

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I dont belive this chart, - and + is inverted and forward is backward.

Because the russians made everything the opposite way like we do.

For example choppers, huey blades rotating left... Mi8 right. Huey throttle increase left... Mi8 right.

Seats and gunsights are opposite, even machineguns are feeded oppsite...

they make everything the other way and the dokument is russian made, so i dont trust :)


Edited by Jafferson
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Was first think the same because there you found nothing about recommended Trim, but there is a German documentation about High Speed Handling of the 109.

The Plane itself was modified from F to G big Rudder as example was more or less serial Airplane.

There was big hint in the Documentation when they write 109 normal Trimmed for cruise Speed +1 Trim.

There was serval test about dive speed Trim, specifically as mentioned 109 with Elevator Trim more then 1,45 degree foward trim the Pilot was unable to Recover without Trim Wheel from diving and Plane was unstable from overreaction

Once you have tasted Flight, you will forever walk the Earth with your Eyes turned Skyward.

 

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