question about the stickforces - Page 2 - ED Forums
 


Notices

Reply
 
Thread Tools Display Modes
Old 01-11-2019, 11:31 AM   #11
amazingme
Member
 
Join Date: Nov 2014
Location: Bucharest
Posts: 685
Default

As this was a very debated topic when these stick forces were implemented for the 109, I searched and found a reply from Yo-Yo regarding the ED's philosophy behind them.



https://forums.eagle.ru/showpost.php...7&postcount=48, reads:



"in DCS we decided to have controls movement, so control surfaces as they are in reality. That's the point. This way the simulated FM fits the real one regarding required stick movement. Of course we understood that shorter travel of the majority of game controllers will require less travels to get the same result comparing the real aircraft. Nevertheless, this model gives good feeling even if you get the real plane stick after hundreds hours in virtual plane. I had an opportunity to compare the real P-51 to its DCS twin... the feeling was that the real plane behaves exactly the same you use to feel it in DCS regardless of higher forces at the controls.

Excessive control forces in any simulation can be done using so called cutting force (any movement of the virtual stick are not available beyond this point) preceding with the zone of low responce agility. So, for example, you can pull the stick up to 70 kg but accurate piloting is not available since the force is higher than, say, 20-30 kg. "
__________________
Specs:
Spoiler:
Asus Z97 PRO Gamer, i7 4790K@4.6GHz, 4x8GB Kingston @2400MHz 11-13-14-32, Titan X, Creative X-Fi, 128+2x250GB SSDs, Saitek X55 Throttle + G940, MFG Crosswinds, TrackIR 5 w/ pro clip, JetSeat, Win10 Pro 64-bit, 27" monitor, TN panel, 1920x1080

Settings:
Spoiler:
2.1.x - Textures:High Terrain:High Civ.Traffic:Off Water:High VisRan:Low Heatblur:High Shadows:High Res:1920x1080 RoC:1024 MSAA:4x AF:16x HDR:OFF DefS: ON GCI: ON DoF:Off Lens: OFF C/G:390m Trees:1500m R:max Gamma: 1.5
amazingme is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 01-11-2019, 12:57 PM   #12
birdstrike
Member
 
Join Date: Mar 2018
Posts: 231
Default

i remember this post...it still doesnt answer my questions though about 1 and 2 hands on the stick.

i would like to get an answer about that, as in the 109, when you're flying lets say 500kph or higher, and begin to pull your joystick completely back, first not much is going to happen and the 109 goes into a "shallow" turn. but then there is the point, where the pilot seems to all of a sudden pull way harder than the first few seconds. it feels that at this point, the virtual pilot begins to use his second arm...

now when this happens, the 109 begins a sharp turn, and mostly too sharp to keep that turn you wanted, so you have to reduce your pull on the stick slightly to avoid a blackout or at least a massive energy loss, ending with a stall.

...now we are still at high speeds....

if you now reduce your pull on your stick at home, even minimal, the 109 will drop its turn rate drastically down, and this feels as if the pilot decided to only need one hand again...now you only wanted to reduce that turn by a small margin, to avoid a blackout or stall, but instead the 109 goes into a "shallow" turn again...

but you wanted to turn hard, so you decide to pull back on the stick again...this again seems to take sometimes several seconds until the plane turns hard...

at least by the feels of it, it seems that the pilot does indeed switch between 1 and 2 hand flying on the stick in the 109....

Last edited by birdstrike; 01-11-2019 at 01:17 PM.
birdstrike is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 01-11-2019, 02:01 PM   #13
Vatikus
Member
 
Join Date: Aug 2016
Location: Slovenia
Posts: 475
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by birdstrike View Post
(...)begin to pull your joystick completely back, first not much is going to happen and the 109 goes into a "shallow" turn. but then there is the point, where the pilot seems to all of a sudden pull way harder than the first few seconds. it feels that at this point, the virtual pilot begins to use his second arm...

This is the lag effect of the virtual stick as it is catching up and thus closer it gets to your joystick position the more it feels as a sudden pull... the reason is that most of the times we will miss the intended joystick deflection, setting it to far because pitch rate feedback was lower than wanted (because of virtual lag) and when virtual stick syncs with our joystick we are overshooting wanted pitch rate, even causing a stall.


Quote:
if you now reduce your pull on your stick at home, even minimal, the 109 will drop its turn rate drastically down, and this feels as if the pilot decided to only need one hand again
This is because when you go toward center stick, there is no virtual lag. Lag is applied only away from the center.
__________________
=37.Sqn= Black Squares

Last edited by Vatikus; 01-11-2019 at 02:04 PM.
Vatikus is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 01-11-2019, 08:04 PM   #14
amazingme
Member
 
Join Date: Nov 2014
Location: Bucharest
Posts: 685
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by birdstrike View Post
i remember this post...it still doesnt answer my questions though about 1 and 2 hands on the stick.

i would like to get an answer about that, as in the 109, when you're flying lets say 500kph or higher, and begin to pull your joystick completely back, first not much is going to happen and the 109 goes into a "shallow" turn. but then there is the point, where the pilot seems to all of a sudden pull way harder than the first few seconds. it feels that at this point, the virtual pilot begins to use his second arm...

now when this happens, the 109 begins a sharp turn, and mostly too sharp to keep that turn you wanted, so you have to reduce your pull on the stick slightly to avoid a blackout or at least a massive energy loss, ending with a stall.

...now we are still at high speeds....

if you now reduce your pull on your stick at home, even minimal, the 109 will drop its turn rate drastically down, and this feels as if the pilot decided to only need one hand again...now you only wanted to reduce that turn by a small margin, to avoid a blackout or stall, but instead the 109 goes into a "shallow" turn again...

but you wanted to turn hard, so you decide to pull back on the stick again...this again seems to take sometimes several seconds until the plane turns hard...

at least by the feels of it, it seems that the pilot does indeed switch between 1 and 2 hand flying on the stick in the 109....
I'm very well aware of this behavior and I reckon it is silly.. it does NOT represent how the K4 is behaving in any way. We only have a handicapped plane flown by a handicapped pilot. That's all..
__________________
Specs:
Spoiler:
Asus Z97 PRO Gamer, i7 4790K@4.6GHz, 4x8GB Kingston @2400MHz 11-13-14-32, Titan X, Creative X-Fi, 128+2x250GB SSDs, Saitek X55 Throttle + G940, MFG Crosswinds, TrackIR 5 w/ pro clip, JetSeat, Win10 Pro 64-bit, 27" monitor, TN panel, 1920x1080

Settings:
Spoiler:
2.1.x - Textures:High Terrain:High Civ.Traffic:Off Water:High VisRan:Low Heatblur:High Shadows:High Res:1920x1080 RoC:1024 MSAA:4x AF:16x HDR:OFF DefS: ON GCI: ON DoF:Off Lens: OFF C/G:390m Trees:1500m R:max Gamma: 1.5
amazingme is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 01-12-2019, 04:34 PM   #15
Ala13_ManOWar
Senior Member
 
Ala13_ManOWar's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2010
Location: Spain
Posts: 1,393
Default

And I guess you all as always can say that's not a K4 (or any other DCS warbird as all of them feature this) because you have flown the real deal to say so, right?


S!
__________________
"I went into the British Army believing that if you want peace you must prepare for war. I believe now that if you prepare for war, you get war." -- Major-General Frederick B. Maurice
Ala13_ManOWar is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 01-12-2019, 09:40 PM   #16
amazingme
Member
 
Join Date: Nov 2014
Location: Bucharest
Posts: 685
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Ala13_ManOWar View Post
And I guess you all as always can say that's not a K4 (or any other DCS warbird as all of them feature this) because you have flown the real deal to say so, right?


S!
Neither have Yo-Yo.. What do you want to prove..?

Sent from my Redmi 5 using Tapatalk
__________________
Specs:
Spoiler:
Asus Z97 PRO Gamer, i7 4790K@4.6GHz, 4x8GB Kingston @2400MHz 11-13-14-32, Titan X, Creative X-Fi, 128+2x250GB SSDs, Saitek X55 Throttle + G940, MFG Crosswinds, TrackIR 5 w/ pro clip, JetSeat, Win10 Pro 64-bit, 27" monitor, TN panel, 1920x1080

Settings:
Spoiler:
2.1.x - Textures:High Terrain:High Civ.Traffic:Off Water:High VisRan:Low Heatblur:High Shadows:High Res:1920x1080 RoC:1024 MSAA:4x AF:16x HDR:OFF DefS: ON GCI: ON DoF:Off Lens: OFF C/G:390m Trees:1500m R:max Gamma: 1.5
amazingme is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 01-13-2019, 05:27 PM   #17
Ala13_ManOWar
Senior Member
 
Ala13_ManOWar's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2010
Location: Spain
Posts: 1,393
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by amazingme View Post
Neither have Yo-Yo.. What do you want to prove..?
But he's an engineer with the numbers in his hand. I don't mean to prove nothing, it's just this very same conversation with regard to this or any other Bf109 subject has happened so many times here and "arguments" are usually the same with the same evidences, none at all, so changes won't ever happen that way.

S!
__________________
"I went into the British Army believing that if you want peace you must prepare for war. I believe now that if you prepare for war, you get war." -- Major-General Frederick B. Maurice
Ala13_ManOWar is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 01-15-2019, 01:24 PM   #18
Vatikus
Member
 
Join Date: Aug 2016
Location: Slovenia
Posts: 475
Default

When someone says that is not how K4 should fly, it means primarly the piloting technique.
Most of us understand the reason why ED choose their implementation, however the side effect of it is that once you start to deviate from the cruising flight into more aerobatic, the technique is less realistic than if there would not been as much lag. That is a fact either you like it or not.

That being said, I doubt we will ever see a change on the implementation, so either one needs to get used to it or fly other planes/sims.
__________________
=37.Sqn= Black Squares
Vatikus is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 01-15-2019, 04:15 PM   #19
Yo-Yo
ED Team
 
Yo-Yo's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2003
Posts: 12,946
Default

Who can read - will read. Who can understand - will understand.
https://forums.eagle.ru/showthread.php?t=200423

That's all I can say.
__________________
Ніщо так сильно не ранить мозок, як уламки скла від розбитих рожевих окулярів
There is nothing so hurtful for the brain as splinters of broken rose-coloured spectacles.
Ничто так сильно не ранит мозг, как осколки стекла от разбитых розовых очков (С) Me
Yo-Yo is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 01-15-2019, 05:40 PM   #20
Vatikus
Member
 
Join Date: Aug 2016
Location: Slovenia
Posts: 475
Default

Thank you Yo-Yo for taking time... I am sure you know that kinematics of K elevator is different, but anyways.. even if we ignore this, the main question in this topic is rather about virtual pilot's ability for achieving rate of flight stick deflection - at what threshold stick force rate cannot be matched with our joystick's? The question which follows is, how come only WW2 birds have such pilot model while jet do not in DCS? I can pull instant 18kg (max pull) in DCS F18.
__________________
=37.Sqn= Black Squares
Vatikus is offline   Reply With Quote
Reply

Thread Tools
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off

Forum Jump

All times are GMT. The time now is 07:02 PM. vBulletin Skin by ForumMonkeys. Powered by vBulletin®.
Copyright ©2000 - 2019, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.