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P-51 vs 109


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Ach, should've commented on the delete above. Well it was just an unnecessary reply since Rob said it all there really...

 

Anyway, yeah, John Cleese's Fawlty Towers indeed. One of the funniest comedy series ever.

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Are you perhaps .... German? :megalol:

When you hit the wrong button on take-off

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That's okay. Faulty Towers is pretty obscure outside Britain. All just in jest anyway ;) and you're a good sport :thumbup:

When you hit the wrong button on take-off

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I've wondered why the BF-109 is so much more of a powerhouse in DCS and why the P-51 is not much of a threat, while the history books say that the P-51 was the better plane. Something does not match up. Are the flight models wrong with these two planes?

 

That's because in the flight sim world we tend to break everything down into the 1 vs. 1 dogfight.

 

In reality by the time the K entered service the war was almost over and Germany was hurting. Their best pilots were gone so they were sending up mostly rookies with few hours. They were attacking bombers while P-51s were defending the bombers. They had massive supply chain and quality control issues making it hard to field full units, while on the Allied side they were getting better skills and greater numbers every day that passed.

 

On the ground, the Tiger and Panther were far better than the Sherman, but the situation was the generally the same.

 

If you think the current 109 totally outclasses the Mustang, your head will spin when the 262 arrives.

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If you think the current 109 totally outclasses the Mustang, your head will spin when the 262 arrives.

 

If the 262 is allowed on servers like Burning Skies, or maybe just more than 1 or 2 slots, I will quit DCS WWII.

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Shouldn't be available in any real numbers of course. But the late-war German craft was actually very good, whereas supplies, logistics and good pilots were sorely lacking.

 

So I don't know, all that'll depend on the server admin.

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  • ED Team
If the 262 is allowed on servers like Burning Skies, or maybe just more than 1 or 2 slots, I will quit DCS WWII.

 

Allied pilots felt the same as you :)

 

Pilot wants 80" hg to catch jets, complaining to the devs in his report :)

 

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the issue has always been that while the jets may be realistic (or, at least, pretty close) the scenarios that are played are incredibly unrealistic. especially in props, numbers make an incredible difference to the outcome of fights.

 

 

in reality, here's how your average battle in '44 would go for you as hans schmitt:

 

 

1. engage P-51 on neutral/favorable terms, go a turn or two, maybe you get him, maybe you don't

2. bounced by unengaged P-51. you may not observe him at any point. he fires at you, gets you, maybe not.

3. bounced by unengaged P-51. you may not observe him at any point. he fires at you, gets you, maybe not.

4. bounced by unengaged P-51. you may not observe him at any point. he fires at you, gets you, maybe not.

5. bounced by unengaged P-51. you may not observe him at any point. he fires at you, gets you, maybe not.

6. you fly home (maybe)

7. later, 100 P-51s strafe your airfield

8. repeat tomorrow if able

 

 

in few vs few, german planes hold several key advantages, but P-51 is capable, has the range to get to germany, and outnumbers you. it can kill you, and if enough unengaged fighters pounce you, you will statistically be forced to eject and/or die.


Edited by Cik
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That's because in the flight sim world we tend to break everything down into the 1 vs. 1 dogfight.

 

In reality by the time the K entered service the war was almost over and Germany was hurting. Their best pilots were gone so they were sending up mostly rookies with few hours. They were attacking bombers while P-51s were defending the bombers. They had massive supply chain and quality control issues making it hard to field full units, while on the Allied side they were getting better skills and greater numbers every day that passed.

 

On the ground, the Tiger and Panther were far better than the Sherman, but the situation was the generally the same.

 

If you think the current 109 totally outclasses the Mustang, your head will spin when the 262 arrives.

 

Great response. Notwithstanding the issues the Germans had (supply chain, green pilots, etc) near the end of the war. Keeping the 262 out of the conversation for obvious reasons. Is the BF-109 actually a better plane than the P-51? In DCS, the 109 seems clearly the better plane.

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better is relative. it's a short range interceptor, it's pretty good at it.

 

 

against P-51 it has narrow advantage in instantaneous climb, wide advantage in turn performance, probably parity in armament (save perhaps when attacking bombers) it loses out in fuel range and numbers. 109K is aided by generally very low altitude of fights and airquake nature of engagements (few v few where most people fight to the death)

 

 

it would be useless to anybody but germany IIRC, as it's range is lackluster compared to mustang.

 

 

but yes, very nimble and dangerous.


Edited by Cik
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the issue has always been that while the jets may be realistic (or, at least, pretty close) the scenarios that are played are incredibly unrealistic. especially in props, numbers make an incredible difference to the outcome of fights.

 

 

in reality, here's how your average battle in '44 would go for you as hans schmitt:

 

 

1. engage P-51 on neutral/favorable terms, go a turn or two, maybe you get him, maybe you don't

2. bounced by unengaged P-51. you may not observe him at any point. he fires at you, gets you, maybe not.

3. bounced by unengaged P-51. you may not observe him at any point. he fires at you, gets you, maybe not.

4. bounced by unengaged P-51. you may not observe him at any point. he fires at you, gets you, maybe not.

5. bounced by unengaged P-51. you may not observe him at any point. he fires at you, gets you, maybe not.

6. you fly home (maybe)

7. later, 100 P-51s strafe your airfield

8. repeat tomorrow if able

 

 

in few vs few, german planes hold several key advantages, but P-51 is capable, has the range to get to germany, and outnumbers you. it can kill you, and if enough unengaged fighters pounce you, you will statistically be forced to eject and/or die.

 

So, are the flight models for the WWII war birds accurate? If yes, which plane stats-up to be superior? Can I make the observation that because so many are flying the 109 in DCS, does it mean that (in DCS at least) the 109 is the superior platform. For full transparency, I bought the Spitfire. I so want to buy the P-51, but I don't want to waste my money buying something so outclassed that I make myself a setting target for everyone not flying a P-51.

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spitfire and P-51 are roughly on par, they just have different strengths.

 

 

you can knock down 109s all day if you are conservative and play to your strengths:

 

 

approach from 4-6k ft above 109 dive to 450-480 mph

 

draw lead

shoot

kill or no kill

zoom

turn low repeat at most, twice (unless target is very low energy)

 

dive out and run

 

 

this assumes you are alone, if you are in pair you can turn with him to drag to low energy and unengaged man can high/low attack at will

 

 

109 is good but is not immune to bullets. all you must do is achieve shooting position, then shoot. once is sometimes enough.

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So, are the flight models for the WWII war birds accurate?

 

As I remember it, ours is a PTO config plane with a maximum boost level of 67", whereas ETO birds had 72". So I think that's your answer right there.

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It is a very often asked question on Russian forums but concerning to the Yak vs 109 or T-34 against V and VI tanks. :) The interesting question too, is how Midway was won with F-4F against Zero.

 

 

 

The answer can be in "outnumbered" or "outplayed" or in much more available resources or in better tactics.. Germany could not win fighting against endless Russian manpower and territories, American and British industry and science.

 

 

 

Returning to 109K... if it has almost 1900 hp for 3400 kg against Mustang's 1650 for 4300 (even if you have it with the same fuel weight as 109 it is at least 4000 kg), 16 m2 vs 22 m2 - 109 outclimbs P-51 easily. Add 109's better engine indicator power management because of variable speed blower, as it does not have this sawtooth power dependance on altitude.

 

 

 

Anyway, especially on online, especially during teamwork 109's advantages are not absolute.

 

 

How much thrust do they produce? I was wondering, given the Mustang has a four bladed propeller while the Kurfurst has a three bladed propeller but both being driven with different horsepower ratings.

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the real technical answer is unknown to me, but generally speaking you will get two vertical turns before 109 will be at co-advantage. by your third turn he will have advantage, assuming you started from your max speed of ~450 mph and he is at a military/cruise sort of speed.

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So, are the flight models for the WWII war birds accurate? If yes, which plane stats-up to be superior? Can I make the observation that because so many are flying the 109 in DCS, does it mean that (in DCS at least) the 109 is the superior platform. For full transparency, I bought the Spitfire. I so want to buy the P-51, but I don't want to waste my money buying something so outclassed that I make myself a setting target for everyone not flying a P-51.

 

Spitfire Mk IX isn’t really on par with late war Me 109K :music_whistling:

You would need a Spitfire Mk XIV (Griffon engine).

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  • 3 weeks later...
Spitfire Mk IX isn’t really on par with late war Me 109K :music_whistling:

You would need a Spitfire Mk XIV (Griffon engine).

 

Maybe not on par exactly, but versus the AI I've flown against, it's certainly close enough to hang on in a tail-chasing climb, assuming a co-E start, too nail the target before you need to break off due to impending stall or overheat.

 

AI does rely heavily on zoom climb, so against humans of course it'll change a lot. But from what I've seen, although they aren't a dead even match, the Mk. IX is close enough in performance to be a serious threat to the 109K.

 

Sorry if that's too far off topic.

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