jackmckay Posted November 14, 2017 Share Posted November 14, 2017 Because it is not in the manner of "fair play" and not all players knew that that is vital to winning the match - that was also not mentioned in briefing data or training mission but announced just prior event, also in RL that is extremely dangerous and makes pilots grounded because of possible collision danger as fight deck limit violation too. Every fair game has equal starting positions, right? What about thick fog fight or pitch black scenario dogfight? Why not raising the bar even more? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Stuge Posted November 14, 2017 Share Posted November 14, 2017 Because it is not in the manner of "fair play" and not all players knew that that is vital to winning the match - that was also not mentioned in briefing data or training mission but announced just prior event, also in RL that is extremely dangerous and makes pilots grounded because of possible collision danger as fight deck limit violation too. Every fair game has equal starting positions, right? What about thick fog fight or pitch black scenario dogfight? Why not raising the bar even more? Ok. A) It's a dogfighting/BFM competition that's open to all skill levels. The subject matter is EXTREMELY complex. This is a place where veteran black belt pilots (like me and many others who were participating) come to challenge each other HARDCORE. And we take it very seriously, it's a great hobby of passion. We put years and years, some of us even 10+ years of intensive training to become good in BFM. In short, we are like martial artists. Coming to us blackbelts and saying "no you can't do this or this move because the beginners can't do it" is bound to have a reaction in people. Hardcore BFM absolutely requires the pre-merge component to be there to be used and counter-used. B) This is not a real life training exercise simulation. And if it were (i certainly like a real-life realistic setup, too), they would be done BY THE BOOK, again in the hardcore spirit that us veterans are used to expect. Thank you and sorry if this offends anyone's feelings. This is how it is. http://www.104thphoenix.com Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jackmckay Posted November 14, 2017 Share Posted November 14, 2017 "The subject matter is EXTREMELY complex." Forgive me to make it extremely simple: All you have to do is aim opponents tailpipe in greater angle possible while at max turn rate speed hoping that you wont crash into him. Choose flight level you like, chose position aspect you like. If that includes 90deg cross path that is fine too. What is post-merge fight then if you make all kind of maneuvers prior merge itself? PS. I also fly sims daily from Falcon 4 back in '98 (C64 I don't count) ..F4AF, IL2, LO, LOMAC, FSX, X.. etc.. Don't push that blackbelt cards please cos that won't elevate anyone's stands. Its not ethical. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Stuge Posted November 14, 2017 Share Posted November 14, 2017 (edited) "The subject matter is EXTREMELY complex." Forgive me to make it extremely simple: All you have to do is aim opponents tailpipe in greater angle possible while at max turn rate speed hoping that you wont crash into him. Choose flight level you like, chose position aspect you like. If that includes 90deg cross path that is fine too. What is post-merge fight then if you make all kind of maneuvers prior merge itself? PS. I also fly sims daily from Falcon 4 back in '98 (C64 I don't count) ..F4AF, IL2, LO, LOMAC, FSX, X.. etc.. Don't push that blackbelt cards please cos that won't elevate anyone's stands. Its not ethical. Yes you oversimplified it. A lot. If you just aim for the tailpipe you're doing it wrong. Max turn rate - also wrong, instead your airspeed should be adjusted related to the bandit's. How far behind you pass matters. Bandit's reciprocal lead turn geometry matters. Lateral displacement matters. Horizontal/vertical attitudes during merge matter. "Baiting" (trying to make bandit pull a lead turn in a certain way) matters. Merge altitude matters (this can be enforced though with the limitations i described) The black belt term is not to elevate status, i don't care about that. I only want to convey the views of the crowd that takes this seriously and train regularly. Edited November 14, 2017 by Stuge http://www.104thphoenix.com Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jackmckay Posted November 14, 2017 Share Posted November 14, 2017 (edited) Actually, you just refined the details of my "simple" statement that is not 100% wrong to be called "all wrong". You refined my 5% and added "baiting". All you said means that me and other "fair play idiots" were waiting to merge to make any combat maneuvers as it has been said in briefing room prior the fight. I'm glad that this discussion is here openly presented for people to know what is this all about and that it has nothing to do with "RL Top Gun" practice and that 90% of the fight lies in pre-merge positioning even if it is called post-merge fight. Edited November 14, 2017 by jackmckay Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Stuge Posted November 15, 2017 Share Posted November 15, 2017 I didn't say it was _all_ wrong :) And of course post-merge maneuvering does make 90% of the fight. But my view stands that pre-merge is an essential part of the whole, and that it is both 100% fair and in fact more fair than what was used on Saturday since in that setup it is hard for the pilot to start acting exactly when merge has occurred, as it has to be gauged visually in a Mach 2 pass. I'm sure the top scorers in the tournament all agree if you ask them. I think we've reached an end to this discussion, we agree to disagree in some parts :) Thank you for the discussion, it was refreshing! http://www.104thphoenix.com Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
FLANKERATOR Posted November 15, 2017 Share Posted November 15, 2017 (edited) Kapsu Amazing video compilation Kapsu! music alone was bad ass, let alone the awesome fights you showed us from your perspective. Absolutely loved it! What I noticed is that once you got onto someone's six you become unshakable, worse than a super glue lol Last fight vs Stuge was epic, hands down the toughest and rightfully the most rewarding. What could we hope for better than a thrilling tie breaker against title holder to close the 1v1 tourney. Congrats again! --------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- @MicroVax: Thanks for letting us know you won't make it. How about Dackster? is he getting a new wingman or should I withdraw both of you and call in a pair from the wait list? ---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Guys, regarding pre-merge ROE's, I will discuss with TAW and we will come up with a more accurate statement. My opinion is that BFM starts way before merging, going straight and not maneuvering doesn't sound realistic, rather dangerous. Building angle off pre merge allows for more setups and tactics (faking turn rate to go for radius...etc sort of tricks)...I'll have a chat with TAW and i'm sure we will come up with a better statement about pre-merge ROE). Thanks folks. Edited November 15, 2017 by FLANKERATOR 1 Situational Awareness: https://sa-sim.com/ | The Air Combat Dojo: https://discord.gg/Rz77eFj Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Buckeye Posted November 15, 2017 Share Posted November 15, 2017 Guys, regarding pre-merge ROE's, I will discuss with TAW and we will come up with a more accurate statement. My opinion is that BFM starts way before merging, going straight and not maneuvering doesn't sound realistic, rather dangerous. Building angle off pre merge allows for more setups and tactics (faking turn rate to go for radius...etc sort of tricks)...I'll have a chat with TAW and i'm sure we will come up with a better statement about pre-merge ROE). Thanks folks. Agreed. Looking forward to joining in this tourney next year :thumbup: VR Cockpit (link): Custom Throttletek F/A-18C Throttle w/ Hall Sensors + Otto switches | Slaw Device RX Viper Pedals w/ Damper | VPC T-50 Base + 15cm Black Sahaj Extension + TM Hornet or Warthog Grip | Super Warthog Wheel Stand Pro | Steelcase Leap V2 + JetSeat SE VR Rig: Pimax 5K+ | ASUS ROG Strix 1080Ti | Intel i7-9700K | Gigabyte Z390 Aorus Master | Corsair H115i RGB Platinum | 32GB Corsair Vengeance Pro RGB 3200 | Dell U3415W Curved 3440x1440 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jackmckay Posted November 15, 2017 Share Posted November 15, 2017 That should have been said in briefing: post-merge weapon-free and not post-merge fight - two very fundamentally different things. Air combat maneuvering as part of BFM is committed pre-merge and continued post-merge as allowed dogfight elements or just fight. This scenario needs proximity trigger of egg. 50m bubble around each player to start match in-merge when booth in proximity with message "Weapon-free!". No talk about wings level or pass me from my left or right side and then we fight. This should have been explained and stroked as fundamental rule of tournament, clear and simple. It didn't and thus gave certain players unfair advantage. Hope it will be corrected in next one. :thumbup: Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bushmanni Posted November 15, 2017 Share Posted November 15, 2017 Limiting maneuvering before merging doesnt really help the less skilled people as it's such a fundamental while not too hard subject that if you fail at it, you won't have the skills and knowledge to beat your opponent anyway. DCS Finland: Suomalainen DCS yhteisö -- Finnish DCS community -------------------------------------------------- SF Squadron Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Shady Posted November 16, 2017 Share Posted November 16, 2017 I agree with Stuge. Dogfighting and BFM starts before the merge. It is almost half of the fight. I would like TAW to consider this for the next years event, aswell as the 2v2 matches coming up. It should be made clare in the briefing what and how merge should be done. That said, it is TAW's event and they decide the rules. We came there out of our free will, and for free. If they decide something, I believe it is up to them to decide it. I would again like to thank TAW for hostin the event, and congrats Kapsu for the win. -Babyface Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
YorZor Posted November 16, 2017 Share Posted November 16, 2017 This thread is really really funny. Most of you don't even know to properly do BFM and you're bitching about the merge and the setup? If I were you I'd rather go learn proper BFM first and then concern yourselves with details like that. One or two do know this stuff in this thread and you should take their words as gospel in here. Watching 'Art of the Kill' once or twice doesn't teach you this stuff. It's doing it over and over again along with reading. I like to think about the skill of dogfighting as three stages of reading a book: - First stage is where you're completely clueless or like I to call it: You know there is a book but you have no clue how to even read it. - Second stage is when can read the book but the contents is mostly over your head. - The third is where you can actually read and interpret/understand said book. I'm trying to say here is that the actual level of most people here is stage one. A few possible stage 2 candidates and maybe 1 that can read the fight while it's happening and knowing how to counteract the BFM problems laid on to you. Of course that won't win you the fight but at least you have tools to fight with. Going straight up after the merge while you're already at angels 16 is pure suicide. That it worked really tells me that people lack the basic knowledge of simple rules like: If he goes up relax and when he comes down pull. Maybe we as a community should try to gain that knowledge and get better at this stuff because at this point it's becoming quite sad in my opinion. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kapsu Posted November 16, 2017 Share Posted November 16, 2017 Do you mind if we use that video for our compilation video as well? I don't mind at all, you can use it if you want to. :) Looking forward to your compilation video, i really enjoyed the previous ones. :thumbup: Regarding pre-merge rules, i agree with Stuge here. Pre-merge tactics are essential part of BFM if you ask me. And if both pilots do what they should be doing you are going to have neutral merge anyway so i don't see a problem there. That being said i don't have anything agaisnt the rules we used last saturday neither. Whatever the rules are going to be in future, just clearly state them before the tournament so we know what to expect and we can train accordingly. I must say that i really enjoyed the medium altitude start though, i find it more interesting and realistic than start at the deck. :smilewink: [sIGPIC][/sIGPIC] DCS Finland - Finnish DCS community SF Squadron Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Stuge Posted November 16, 2017 Share Posted November 16, 2017 (edited) Going straight up after the merge while you're already at angels 16 is pure suicide. That it worked really tells me that people lack the basic knowledge of simple rules like: If he goes up relax and when he comes down pull. Actually it wasn't (and is not) that simple in the case of this tournament. I could go a bit more in depth why... but instead I'll just say... talk is cheap friend :) next time... I hope you will participate and put your money where your mouth is :D Just because you're old school and know stuff.. doesn't make the bandits fall down automatically just by thought. Edited November 16, 2017 by Stuge http://www.104thphoenix.com Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
FLANKERATOR Posted November 16, 2017 Share Posted November 16, 2017 This thread is really really funny. Most of you don't even know to properly do BFM and you're bitching about the merge and the setup? If I were you I'd rather go learn proper BFM first and then concern yourselves with details like that. One or two do know this stuff in this thread and you should take their words as gospel in here. Watching 'Art of the Kill' once or twice doesn't teach you this stuff. It's doing it over and over again along with reading. I like to think about the skill of dogfighting as three stages of reading a book: - First stage is where you're completely clueless or like I to call it: You know there is a book but you have no clue how to even read it. - Second stage is when can read the book but the contents is mostly over your head. - The third is where you can actually read and interpret/understand said book. I'm trying to say here is that the actual level of most people here is stage one. A few possible stage 2 candidates and maybe 1 that can read the fight while it's happening and knowing how to counteract the BFM problems laid on to you. Of course that won't win you the fight but at least you have tools to fight with. Going straight up after the merge while you're already at angels 16 is pure suicide. That it worked really tells me that people lack the basic knowledge of simple rules like: If he goes up relax and when he comes down pull. Maybe we as a community should try to gain that knowledge and get better at this stuff because at this point it's becoming quite sad in my opinion. I've always had utmost respect for RvE guys, not because they were once the best in BFM but because of their excellent attitude and humility. Talking people down like you did above was stage zero though, friend. Situational Awareness: https://sa-sim.com/ | The Air Combat Dojo: https://discord.gg/Rz77eFj Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
FLANKERATOR Posted November 16, 2017 Share Posted November 16, 2017 2v2 Roster Update: ----> Tripleinside / Bugs (next on the wait list) have replaced MicroVax/DackSter94 who are unable to attend. ----> Next pairs in line on the wait list ordered by who signed up first: EvilKipper / Painter – Drigo / Falcon – Colmilo / Proton Updated brackets--------->http://sa-sim.com/top-gun-2017-official-brackets/ Situational Awareness: https://sa-sim.com/ | The Air Combat Dojo: https://discord.gg/Rz77eFj Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TurboRUSH Posted November 17, 2017 Share Posted November 17, 2017 Congrats Kapsu! Finally got to see your video today and thank you for sharing. You made the unthinkable happen by beating Stuge! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rainman1810 Posted November 18, 2017 Share Posted November 18, 2017 Why the TS can't be connected now? The combat is due to a few hours later. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rainman1810 Posted November 18, 2017 Share Posted November 18, 2017 ts.taw.net It could be connected. but the password is not right. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dutch Baron Posted November 18, 2017 Author Share Posted November 18, 2017 (edited) Hello all 2 vs 2 participants, We have just sent an email to all 2vs2 participants with the TeamSpeak details. Please check you SPAM folder in case you did not receive it. We have used the email addresses that you used to sign up. We have verified that the email has been sent and received by many already. See you guys in a bit and we are looking forward to the competition. Check http://www.twitch.tv/tawdcs for the semi-live stream. Edited November 18, 2017 by Dutch Baron http://www.TAWDCS.org ### JOINT TASK FORCE JTF-88 ### https://tawdcs.org/battalion/88th/ ### PC: i9 - 32Gb RAM - GTX 1080Ti - TM Warthog Stick and Throttle - MFG Crosswind Black - TrackIR5 - Buddy Fox UFC Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
impeller83 Posted November 18, 2017 Share Posted November 18, 2017 Watching, really nice to see you all fly tnx for the show Skickat från min SM-J730F via Tapatalk Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tripleinside Posted November 18, 2017 Share Posted November 18, 2017 We got our butts kicked early on.... well done Slutcher and Scarface ! All the best ! Thanks TAW for the event , great job ! Win10 x64, Intel core I9 9900k@5ghz, 32GB DDR4, RTX2080 ti, MSI Z370 Tomahawk mobo, M.2 SSD, Warthog HOTAS, home made trackIr, Pimax 8K Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
FLANKERATOR Posted November 18, 2017 Share Posted November 18, 2017 Stuge and Kapsu meeting again in the 2v2 grand finale backed respectively by Razer and Farrago...let's see whats in store this time around! Situational Awareness: https://sa-sim.com/ | The Air Combat Dojo: https://discord.gg/Rz77eFj Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Slutcher Posted November 18, 2017 Share Posted November 18, 2017 (edited) Good fights all! S! Looking forward to seeing the tacviews. Edited November 18, 2017 by Slutcher http://www.51bisons.com Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
impeller83 Posted November 18, 2017 Share Posted November 18, 2017 Thanks guy really nice to watch. I'm up for next year, maybe I'll join eventually Skickat från min SM-J730F via Tapatalk Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Recommended Posts