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Black Shark 3?


QuiGon

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Actually, in the Russian forums, Chizh said there will be a third pylon for the Iglas.

 

 

I think I quoted him somewhere back in my other posts.


Edited by 3WA
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Actually, in the Russian forums, Chizh said there will be a third pylon for the Iglas.

 

 

I think I quoted him somewhere back in my other posts.

 

Ok that’s great. Where is the picture of the real Ka-50 with third pylon?

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Final Ka-50 production model. :D

 

 

Now called the Ka-52.

 

:noexpression:

:chair:

 

Ka-52 is the dumbed down version for people who can't drive and shoot at the same time. =P The seats are side by side because the Ka-52 was built for hand holding!

 

J/K, I think the Ka-52 is badass, but I love that the Ka-50 is single seat!


Edited by TripRodriguez

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:noexpression:

:chair:

 

 

Lol, yeah, but read what I said above about the history. The Ka-50 was just eventually dumped, a second seat was added, and they came out with the Ka-52. The Ka-52 is really just the final Ka-50 with a second seat.

 

 

The thing were flying is just an early prototype that was never put into production. Why I consider it just a fantasy copter. The REAL heli, is the Ka-52. That's the final product. And it has 6 hardpoints on it's wings.

 

 

Which is why my side wants to get the FLIR and RWR, since it's in the Ka-52.

 

 

If you really want to read some good info, read Fri13's post here in the English forum, and S.E. Bulba in the Russian forums. Yandex Translate works well ( I can't read Russian ).


Edited by 3WA
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The thing were flying is just an early prototype that was never put into production. Why I consider it just a fantasy copter. The REAL heli, is the Ka-52. That's the final product. And it has 6 hardpoints on it's wings.

 

Ok, my reply was lighthearted, and this one is friendly, but DISAGREE!!!!!!

 

Before I start, when I'm not 12 hours overdue for sleep I'll read the posts you referred to, I would like to see what they have to say and I would guess that their info is more credible than mine.

 

My info comes from Wikipedia, which I know some people criticize but most of the time when I really dig deep I find Wikipedia was accurate. If what those guys know differs, I'm going to go tell them to edit Wikipedia! :D

 

The Ka-50 only barely went beyond a prototype, but it did go beyond a prototype. Ka-50 was authorized for active duty in 1995. Initially 12 PRODUCTION copies were built and then production halted due to the collapse of the Soviet Union causing financial constraints.

 

Later on three were built from incomplete airframes. 32 total Ka-50's built, 15? of which were actual production aircraft for use in the field.

 

Neither night attack variant ever entered "full production", whereas the original did.

 

Other stuff I've seen online stated that there are Ka-50's still on active duty today, generally as radar equipped scouts.

 

So, since there were at least 15 "production" aircraft and they were put on active duty, I say the Ka-50 is real (if rare as hell) and the Ka-52 is a different aircraft rather than the final version of the Ka-50. That last bit is my opinion mind you, but I see it like the Hornet and the Super Hornet. One is the evolution of the other but both saw active military duty so both are legitimate. In reality there are probably only about ten times as many production Ka-52's as their are production Ka-50's. Not all THAT huge a difference. =)

 

But, as I say I'm willing to accept that if people who really know their stuff say this is incorrect they are almost certainly the ones with the right info.


Edited by TripRodriguez

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Also, I'll be a little surprised if we see those additional hardpoints added. I've got a pile of Ka-50 photos and none of them have a third pylon. Some of the photos certainly look fairly recent. I mean... look at those trees. They didn't make HD trees like that in the 90's! :megalol:

cc94f00487e161f35c6ea85ed9fd6fa0.jpg.43533d2c507c1710388d09c0eb35f2dc.jpg

3716598809_cb29d8fd3b_o.thumb.jpg.c6812521bdeeba962e3ef51379fad1be.jpg

657829745_1515774(1).thumb.jpg.e14ea62d21e6932fce796f22afe1458f.jpg


Edited by TripRodriguez

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Sorry, that's already been argued out in both the Russian and English forums, so don't want to do it again.

 

Yeah, Ka-50 I've never seen a third pylon on, point is, it's on the final Ka-52 model. Plus, a lot of people want it (including me!) :p Again, an old debate already done.

 

You should really read up on this thread in the Russia forums,

 

 

https://forums.eagle.ru/showthread.php?t=242082

 

 

Just bring up the whole thread in Yandex Translate where it says "site".

 

 

and of course, all the posts in the English forums to catch up to the current debate.

 

 

In the Russian forums, S.E. Bulba quotes many books and articles, and has some insights into the Ka's history which I found very interesting. Fri13 seems very knowledgeable on the subject here in the English as well.

 

 

Many good arguments on both sides.

 

 

What really got me though was S.E Bulba's last post here on the English side, where you can clearly see that the Ka-50 was eventually just totally scrapped, in favor of the Ka-52.

 

 

x


Edited by 3WA
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Sorry, that's already been argued out in both the Russian and English forums, so don't want to do it again.

I did say I will read those posts later :book: and that I'm willing to accept that Wikipedia may very well be incorrect, so no need to argue it out again regardless. :thumbup:

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LOL nice.

 

I wonder when that photo was taken, Ka-50 with a glass cockpit. Maybe one of the night variant prototypes?

 

Mind you I much prefer the old fashioned way. =D


Edited by TripRodriguez

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Yeah, it seems there were many more prototypes beyond the one simulated here.

 

 

That, and the Russians appear to have some fondness of duct tape and zip ties. :D

 

 

 

 

 

I wonder when that photo was taken, Ka-50 with a glass cockpit.

 

 

 

I believe that is a version of the Ka-50sh, though I can't prove that beyond a doubt.

 

 

And yeah, glass cockpits hopefully have backup analogue instruments as well. Otherwise, PROBLEM!


Edited by 3WA
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Maybe I should have been born Russian! I too have a fondness for duct tape and zip ties. Also I recently saw Russian engineering described as building prototypes until something works and that is absolutely the way I do my engineering LOL.

 

I edited my post to include my guess that the photo was a Ka-50N or Ka-50sh prototype at the same time you posted LOL.

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Also I recently saw Russian engineering described as building prototypes until something works

 

 

Pretty sure that's what they did with the Ka-50, till they began to understand that it just wouldn't work with one pilot. So they popped an extra seat onto it it, and the Ka-52 was born!

 

 

Here's that post I was looking for from S.E. Bulba.

 

 

A quick, concise history of the Ka-50 in about 5 points. Says it all.

 

 

https://forums.eagle.ru/showpost.php?p=3971224&postcount=48

 

 

x

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(Also I recently saw Russian engineering described as building prototypes until something works) ... Pretty sure that's what they did with the Ka-50, till they began to understand that it just wouldn't work with one pilot. So they popped an extra seat onto it it, and the Ka-52 was born!

 

 

Here's that post I was looking for from S.E. Bulba.

 

 

A quick, concise history of the Ka-50 in about 5 points. Says it all.

 

 

https://forums.eagle.ru/showpost.php?p=3971224&postcount=48

 

 

x

 

"till they began to understand that it just wouldn't work with one pilot. So they popped an extra seat onto it it, and the Ka-52 was born"

 

You've said this many, many times, but it doesn't matter how many times you say it, it's not true.

 

The Ka-50 was built in low numbers, and there were a few variants, but it wasn't a prototype. That's just a line put forward to justify having a version that never existed.

 

The Ka-50 won the competition to become the next attack helicopter & there was a small serial production run (some of which are still in service) , but there was no money to buy it. Simple as that.

 

Look at the projected production run for the Su-57 - anywhere between 'several hundred', and 'only the examples that currently exist', depending on the world price of natural gas.

 

There are just a couple of what's considered a production run in flight at the moment, but even if they don't build any more, they're not prototypes, and it's not just a stopgap until a new aircraft arrives.

 

They just have budgetary issues that the West doesn't (it's a country with roughly the population of Great Britain + Germany, trying to keep up with the US on it own. )

The intention was to build a Ka-60 as a group command, and that role was filled by the Ka-29VPNTsU in Chechnya

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Ka-52 is the dumbed down version for people who can't drive and shoot at the same time. =P The seats are side by side because the Ka-52 was built for hand holding!

 

 

Laughed so hard, made my day! rdlaugh.png

 

 

Who needs a Ka-52 when you can have man Ka-50s instead? Hold my beer! dealwithit.png

 

 

Got more to do in a single seat Hornet where I can only set up a lot of things in midair while in the Shark I'd hav plenty of time to play some Tbris enroute rainbowdashwink.png

 

 

And compared to the A-10C, the workload in the Shark is a walk in the park... fsgrin.png

 

 

Design decisions, as usual. icon_question.gif


Edited by Eldur

dcsdashie-hb-ed.jpg

 

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Got more to do in a single seat Hornet where I can only set up a lot of things in midair while in the Shark I'd hav plenty of time to play some Tbris enroute rainbowdashwink.png

 

 

And compared to the A-10C, the workload in the Shark is a walk in the park... fsgrin.png

 

 

 

 

Agree, but those jets aren't flying 5 feet above the ground, trying to keep cover with the treeline, or ruined buildings, and watching frantically for enemy ground troops. :)

 

 

However, I think cup holder should definitely be added to the list of items players want! That and MLP skins!


Edited by 3WA
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To keep a safe distance from a tree you keep covering you must be focused driving the chopper. At the same time targeting job no way with Ka-50...

 

They still can make a good single driving but with more sensors. Only to safe a pilot...? Probably doesn’t worth it. It is not a WWII plane then was easier make a plane than teach a good pilot.


Edited by pepin1234

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Here's that post I was looking for from S.E. Bulba.

 

 

A quick, concise history of the Ka-50 in about 5 points. Says it all.

 

 

https://forums.eagle.ru/showpost.php?p=3971224&postcount=48

 

 

x

 

But.... that post neither states nor implies that all Ka-50 helicopters built were prototypes... nothing there contradicts anything I said.

 

The fact that it became obsolete before many were built changes nothing about its operational status in the mid to late 90's.

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Google Translate

 

… The Ka-50 only barely went beyond a prototype, but it did go beyond a prototype. Ka-50 was authorized for active duty in 1995. Initially 12 PRODUCTION copies were built…

… The Ka-50 was built in low numbers, and there were a few variants, but it wasn't a prototype. That's just a line put forward to justify having a version that never existed.

 

The Ka-50 won the competition to become the next attack helicopter & there was a small serial production run (some of which are still in service) , but there was no money to buy it. Simple as that…

This is a correct understanding of the real situation. :thumbup:

 

But to argue with people is sometimes useless, unfortunately, because everyone sees only what he wants to see. :)

 

Original in Russian

 

Это правильное понимание реальной ситуации. :thumbup:

 

Но спорить с людьми иногда бывает бесполезно, к сожалению, ибо каждый видит лишь то, что хочет видеть. :)

 

Sorry, I don't speak English, so I use Google Translate.

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My understanding was the Ka-50 was designed during the 80s as a dedicated high tech anti-tank unit for the battlefields of Europe and the NATO.... ummm... blue tide???

 

Anyway, it was in the process of entering production, but like the Kuznetsov and Yak-141, and multiple other projects the whole 'country disintegrating' thing killed it. The threat was no longer NATO tanks but economic instability. Some projects like Kuznetsov languished behind schedule for many years before being (kind of) completed, others like the Kamov and Yak simply died.

 

My understanding of things was not as simple as 'Ka-50 not good, canceled in favor of'. It was 'not enough money to go around' and 'no need for a specialised AT helo' so when the economy began recovering they opted for a more multi-role/flexible design with the 52, phasing in the Havoc, and using Hinds as beaters. I believe the ORIGINAL plan was for Ka-52s to act as command/scout helos and 50s to get in and do the dirty work in mixed flights.

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My understanding of things was not as simple as 'Ka-50 not good, canceled in favor of'. It was 'not enough money to go around' and 'no need for a specialised AT helo' so when the economy began recovering they opted for a more multi-role/flexible design with the 52, phasing in the Havoc, and using Hinds as beaters. I believe the ORIGINAL plan was for Ka-52s to act as command/scout helos and 50s to get in and do the dirty work in mixed flights.

 

I don't think Ka-52 was in any plans back then (some earlier post mentions a completely different helicopter intended for that role - the Ka-60 which I guess was never developed in that form).

 

The Ka-50 was eventually authorized for operational service in the Russian Army (mid-90's), but luckily they didn't have money to produce it. I say luckily, because by that time it was obvious that a more sophisticated and a night-capable version was needed and testing of the Ka-50N showed that two-man crew was preferable for night ops, so Kamov decided to develop the Ka-52 on its own.

 

IIRC, in late 90's the Russian Army chose the Mi-28N for the gunship role, but later on the Ka-52 was chosen by the special forces as their preferred support helicopter.

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I don't think Ka-52 was in any plans back then (some earlier post mentions a completely different helicopter intended for that role - the Ka-60 which I guess was never developed in that form).

 

The Ka-50 was eventually authorized for operational service in the Russian Army (mid-90's), but luckily they didn't have money to produce it. I say luckily, because by that time it was obvious that a more sophisticated and a night-capable version was needed and testing of the Ka-50N showed that two-man crew was preferable for night ops, so Kamov decided to develop the Ka-52 on its own…

And this is also almost all true. :yes:

 

Original in Russian

 

И это тоже практически всё верно. :yes:

 

Sorry, I don't speak English, so I use Google Translate.

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Google Translate

 

… the Ka-60 which I guess was never developed in that form…

By the way, right. According to the plans of the JSC Kamov, the Ka-60R reconnaissance modification for the Ka-50 was to become a kind of analog of the Bell OH-58C Kiowa scout helicopter for the Boeing AH-64A Apache.

 

Original in Russian

 

Кстати, правильно. По замыслам ОАО «Камов», разведывательная модификация Ка-60Р для Ка-50 должна была стать своего рода аналогом вертолёта-разведчика Bell OH-58C Kiowa для Boeing AH-64A Apache.

 


Edited by S.E.Bulba
correction.

Sorry, I don't speak English, so I use Google Translate.

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