TRACK IR IS Outdated

There are alot of comparisons being made between a supposedly finished product, TrackIR with a unfinished prototype Oculus Rift. The VR proof of concept is good enough now that investors with huge amounts of monies, and the best minds in the industry have flocked to its development. I see no reason why VR won't live up to the hype at some point in its development, and future consumer versions. Even then I'm sure some people will still prefer the "hat switch" or "TrackIR.

Maybe same problems exist as at 80's, then 90's and even as five years ago...

Virtual Reality has tried to be brought to consumers for three decades. Playable with top simulators and tip gaming machines etc.

But even today military use dome simulators instead helmet simulators (even when it is about physical cockpit reasons).

What truly has changed is level of graphics and simulation level. But the key component still is same, the meat between controller and bench.

I have not even searched modern medical reports about the effect to eye sight, only some about headache etc.

But what is interesting is reality of F-35 helmet. Using a optical tracker too.

BAE - Striker Helmet Demonstration:

Maybe same problems exist as at 80's, then 90's and even as five years ago...

 

Virtual Reality has tried to be brought to consumers for three decades. Playable with top simulators and tip gaming machines etc.

 

But even today military use dome simulators instead helmet simulators (even when it is about physical cockpit reasons).

 

What truly has changed is level of graphics and simulation level. But the key component still is same, the meat between controller and bench.

 

I have not even searched modern medical reports about the effect to eye sight, only some about headache etc.

 

But what is interesting is reality of F-35 helmet. Using a optical tracker too.

BAE - Striker Helmet Demonstration:

(prototype)

Earlier VR never had much chance to succeed until the developments in smartphone technology made it possible to do, at a much lower price point. Todays VR proof of concept, has drawn the money, and the people necessary to make it happen, that earlier VR attempts could only dream about.

So the race is on for the first to the table with a device which can be used in unison with the Rift enabling the user to remain immersed without having to lift the Rift to reach for the keyboard i sense a surge in Voice Recognition software being the first lunge for those that haven't yet.

The next step would be to get your hands in there in some sort of virtual way seems like Leap motion are looking into it here http://techcrunch.com/2014/08/28/leap-motion-launches-vr-headset-mount-for-its-motion-controller/ could be interesting if it takes off.

I have the Leap Motion and it does work moving the mouse cross hairs around as well as clicking, but it can be a bit glitchy at times and can also be quite tire some hoovering over a switch trying to click it, then theres the light interference or the accidental swipe as you reach for a drink and click the jettison canopy button needed that in the heat of battle grrrrrrr.

Just got TrackIR 5 and ordered TrackClip pro to be delivered later.

I'd agree with your entire post, sums up why my TIR 5 will be my method of choice for many years to come. The only thing I've done is replaced the cheaply made piece of crap TrackClip Pro with a Delan Clip and now I'm sorted.

Tried face tracking, didn't get on with it in the slightest, seriously unconvinced that OR will work for me due to the very real problem (for me) of not being able to interact with the real world/family whilst using it.

If my TIR breaks, the first thing I'll be doing is ordering a direct replacement...

Earlier VR never had much chance to succeed until the developments in smartphone technology made it possible to do, at a much lower price point. Todays VR proof of concept, has drawn the money, and the people necessary to make it happen, that earlier VR attempts could only dream about.

The previous ones had already more investments and interest.

The fifth (sixth?) generation is now coming, those are not even on market out there, just two developer kit versions from Oculus and one from Samsung for smartphone.

The earlier versions were on market, out for customers. But the problems were same as today.

The only changed thing is the graphics. But many simmer would take cladly a more accurate simulation over graphics. Even if it would be like first Battlezone or Apache Longbow.

Even today Ka-50 simulation is half baked. Flying through trees and so on. Most important benefit and protection that a attack helicopter can have is missing. Same is for A-10C or Su-25T that radars can see those behind trees or those can lock to units in forest etc.

Yet many wish better graphics for afterburner or better simulation for wheel pressure at landing touchdown etc.

Same time many wish to have a VR helmet to get better immersion, with better graphics etc.

Just like decades ago, graphics were top notch at that moment, still the simulations were not so much great but yet the VR was there.

The same thing has happened for movie industry, it isn't few years ago when 3D televisions were invented or 3D movies were made for movie theaters. It was fourth (fifth?) try to get them widely published. But no. Dying markets, again.

I have worked for 3D movie company for filming etc. Just telling them off-the-record that the trend will vanish again like previous ones. 2013 in USA the 3D television sales were under 4000 units.

Now it is even less as people don't care about it, wearing a glasses or positioning themselves middle of screen etc.

I used 3D glasses with Geforce 2 and the problem was that 75Hz display was not enough, 120Hz would have been minimum. But yet it wasn't so great for simulations.

The same problem is with VR glasses that you don't like to wear them so much. Very cool tech, fancy, great experience etc. And after using them for few days it starts get awkward to wear and start etc. And it isn't even the limited applications for those. Playing a FPS with such is first fancy, until noticing that it is nicer to aim with mouse, and look around with mouse. Separating those two makes no much sense.

TrackIR in simulations like DCS work very well. It isn't difficult to set up once configuring system as wanted. A trackClip Pro system on headset isn't huge problem. But looking through VR or raising VR to see around is a problem.

There are hardcore simmers. They probably can sit in car parked on parking slot and just admire the dashboard and feel of it. But how many simmer or even casual flier with DCS is really capable to sit still on chair for hour or two without looking around the own room etc while just flying from waypoint to another?

A airplane cockpit is very tight place and there is very little to really do on long flights or patrols if there isn't action.

A VR glasses purpose for even HC gamers is very questionable. You can't use them well in FPS games, not in RTS games or other such like. The simulations like DCS or some racing games are the really only beneficial ones. And in racing games you don't need to see much around you, just look mirror or a side sometimes. There isn't such need to see around as fighter pilot has in dog fight. Or pilot trying to spot missile launch after them.

Even now Oculus is having same problems as did all other manufacturers have decades ago.

In photography there is research for next gen sensors. A organic sensors that would basically allow noise free photon capture and conversion.

We would need something similar very likely to VR headsets, organic displays that doesn't use pixels, as optics would not then show individual pixels and grid layout they are. But to get pixels presented on randomly placed, sized and shaped organic pieces, it requires huge new inventions.

The very small things required to wear and use VR glasses can be overwhelming to most players.

And one of the most funniest thing gamers can have, is playing together cooperating with each other. And for that VR isn't required.

This also looks interesting to still in development but it uses eye tracking for the mouse http://www.tobii.com/en/eye-experience/eyex/

The previous ones had already more investments and interest.

The fifth (sixth?) generation is now coming, those are not even on market out there, just two developer kit versions from Oculus and one from Samsung for smartphone.

 

The earlier versions were on market, out for customers. But the problems were same as today.

The only changed thing is the graphics. But many simmer would take cladly a more accurate simulation over graphics. Even if it would be like first Battlezone or Apache Longbow.

Even today Ka-50 simulation is half baked. Flying through trees and so on. Most important benefit and protection that a attack helicopter can have is missing. Same is for A-10C or Su-25T that radars can see those behind trees or those can lock to units in forest etc.

 

Yet many wish better graphics for afterburner or better simulation for wheel pressure at landing touchdown etc.

Same time many wish to have a VR helmet to get better immersion, with better graphics etc.

 

Just like decades ago, graphics were top notch at that moment, still the simulations were not so much great but yet the VR was there.

 

The same thing has happened for movie industry, it isn't few years ago when 3D televisions were invented or 3D movies were made for movie theaters. It was fourth (fifth?) try to get them widely published. But no. Dying markets, again.

I have worked for 3D movie company for filming etc. Just telling them off-the-record that the trend will vanish again like previous ones. 2013 in USA the 3D television sales were under 4000 units.

Now it is even less as people don't care about it, wearing a glasses or positioning themselves middle of screen etc.

 

I used 3D glasses with Geforce 2 and the problem was that 75Hz display was not enough, 120Hz would have been minimum. But yet it wasn't so great for simulations.

 

The same problem is with VR glasses that you don't like to wear them so much. Very cool tech, fancy, great experience etc. And after using them for few days it starts get awkward to wear and start etc. And it isn't even the limited applications for those. Playing a FPS with such is first fancy, until noticing that it is nicer to aim with mouse, and look around with mouse. Separating those two makes no much sense.

 

TrackIR in simulations like DCS work very well. It isn't difficult to set up once configuring system as wanted. A trackClip Pro system on headset isn't huge problem. But looking through VR or raising VR to see around is a problem.

 

There are hardcore simmers. They probably can sit in car parked on parking slot and just admire the dashboard and feel of it. But how many simmer or even casual flier with DCS is really capable to sit still on chair for hour or two without looking around the own room etc while just flying from waypoint to another?

A airplane cockpit is very tight place and there is very little to really do on long flights or patrols if there isn't action.

A VR glasses purpose for even HC gamers is very questionable. You can't use them well in FPS games, not in RTS games or other such like. The simulations like DCS or some racing games are the really only beneficial ones. And in racing games you don't need to see much around you, just look mirror or a side sometimes. There isn't such need to see around as fighter pilot has in dog fight. Or pilot trying to spot missile launch after them.

 

Even now Oculus is having same problems as did all other manufacturers have decades ago.

 

In photography there is research for next gen sensors. A organic sensors that would basically allow noise free photon capture and conversion.

We would need something similar very likely to VR headsets, organic displays that doesn't use pixels, as optics would not then show individual pixels and grid layout they are. But to get pixels presented on randomly placed, sized and shaped organic pieces, it requires huge new inventions.

 

The very small things required to wear and use VR glasses can be overwhelming to most players.

And one of the most funniest thing gamers can have, is playing together cooperating with each other. And for that VR isn't required.

Facebook has invested more monies into todays consumer version VR hardware than all the previous versions put together. Note I'm not talking about Military of Industrial VR, but affordable consumer version gaming VR. TrackIR was atleast twice as immersive as a hatswitch, and VR will be ten times more immersive than TrackIR. There are definitely issues that have to be addressed but they are being addressed quickly. The newer display tech has allowed "low persistence technology to greatly reduce motion blur, and motion sickness. Two big VR killers. Not to mention the positional tracking, and resolution improvements.

It appears the latest Cresent Bay prototype has addressed many of the issues, and the Oculus team isn't releasing a consumer version, until it improves the FOV, Optics, Latencies, SDE, etc etc of the latest CB prototype. The improvements won't stop after the release of the first consumer version. That said I'm not so sure 1440P is a high enough resolution for competitive combat flight sims unless its 1440P per eye. The DK2 1080P prototype is no where near good enough. So the "first" consumer version "may" not be good enough, but hugely immersive for other types of flight sims.

I'd agree with your entire post, sums up why my TIR 5 will be my method of choice for many years to come. The only thing I've done is replaced the cheaply made piece of crap TrackClip Pro with a Delan Clip and now I'm sorted.

 

Tried face tracking, didn't get on with it in the slightest, seriously unconvinced that OR will work for me due to the very real problem (for me) of not being able to interact with the real world/family whilst using it.

 

If my TIR breaks, the first thing I'll be doing is ordering a direct replacement...

But you simply *cannot* compare a 2D monitor of any size and what Rift brings to the table. I have three 27" monitors with TrackIR. I haven't tried a 4K monitor, but I do know that it's 2D. And what Rift offers in terms of immersion is *fantastic* When you come in for a gun run on A10, being able to turn your head to keep track of the target while flying the plane *with* awareness of orientation is simply incredible. So while the resolution is still not up to par, I imagine in a year, it'll be up to snuff. For those who haven't tried the Rift, it's very difficult to convey what it's like to have that situational awareness.

hsb

Somehow this thread reminds me of how NASA spent a fortune on developing a pen that works in space... the Russians just used a pencil. I love my track IR despite all its quirks and "features" :music_whistling:

Million dollar comment. This how we should learn and we have to find cheaper way to do same thing

This how we should learn and we have to find cheaper way to do same thing

A cheaper way to do what, build a VR headset as good as the Rift? Good luck with that.

lol... pronounce VR as too expensive and monopoly, hack into their software and offer up a paste together method of sticking two smart phones onto the forehead :) whilst holding the working dll to ranso.. err, forced donation

But you simply *cannot* compare a 2D monitor of any size and what Rift brings to the table. I have three 27" monitors with TrackIR. I haven't tried a 4K monitor, but I do know that it's 2D. And what Rift offers in terms of immersion is *fantastic* When you come in for a gun run on A10, being able to turn your head to keep track of the target while flying the plane *with* awareness of orientation is simply incredible. So while the resolution is still not up to par, I imagine in a year, it'll be up to snuff. For those who haven't tried the Rift, it's very difficult to convey what it's like to have that situational awareness.

 

hsb

I never said it wasn't great for immersion (although I disagree with your assertion than you can't turn your head to track a target with a TIR and still be aware of the orientation, I can do that quite nicely thank you very much, it may not be 1:1 but the brain can translate very easily after rudimentary practice), but that matters less to me than not being able to speak to my wife, keep an eye on my kids, see my cup of tea etc...

TrackIR is the best of the solutions that don't close you off completely, and as such is the best fit for me, whether or not it is the 'best' for immersion.

TrackIR won't survive because it's the best, it will survive because it's 'good enough' for people that for whatever reason don't want a full headset affair.

I'll prefer TIR over OR everytime, because I have MFDs which I can't control, if I don't see anything of the real world. There are other things too, that I couldn't see with OR flying.

lol... pronounce VR as too expensive and monopoly, hack into their software and offer up a paste together method of sticking two smart phones onto the forehead :) whilst holding the working dll to ranso.. err, forced donation

You mean something

But you simply *cannot* compare a 2D monitor of any size and what Rift brings to the table. I have three 27" monitors with TrackIR. I haven't tried a 4K monitor, but I do know that it's 2D. And what Rift offers in terms of immersion is *fantastic* When you come in for a gun run on A10, being able to turn your head to keep track of the target while flying the plane *with* awareness of orientation is simply incredible. So while the resolution is still not up to par, I imagine in a year, it'll be up to snuff. For those who haven't tried the Rift, it's very difficult to convey what it's like to have that situational awareness.

 

hsb

The TrackIR alone does provide the virtual awareness experience. That compared to saved camera angles or hat controlled camera. But you need larger display than 22-24"

The rift benefit by default is to give wider angle of view (100°) but with 4k monitor and TrackIR you can as well widen the view and get much more accurate view around you. To get same, VR glasses would need to offer 4-6k on both eyes. And that isn't going to happen for few years if even for decade.

Throw a 55" 4k television and TrackIR and you have very little reasons to turn your head as everything important is already visible at once, so you need only glance around you without turning head.

The immersion sure is better with VR like the depth field experience and really sitting in virtual cockpit but it isn't 10x to TrackIR + 4k, but almost identical.

Unless they decide to release DK3. ;)

not an issue. I can wait :D

crazy question!! Has anybody been able to get tir 5 to recognize PS3 camera?? Is there a hack?

Openface has a tir client file - what to do with it?

My tir camera is busted up again, is worthless, but have a good PS3 camera with ir filter removed.