Noob Spitfire Handling / Dogfight

Hi Guys

I picked up the Spitfire on the sale after waiting what seems like forever. This beast is a thing of beauty. I am new to props and tail draggers, mostly flying the Hornet, Hog and Huey. Did spend a bit of time in the TF-51D while I waited for my Spitfire.

Been doing a lot of time in the Spitfire the last week. I am getting off the ground, it is not sexy at all, and can bring her down nicely at last. The last few nights I felt like practising what this baby was meant for and setup a simple mission 1v1 with a 109 AI.

I am able to hold my own now and keep the engine in one piece. Got a few kills but the Spitfire seems to be trying to kill me. I am not sure the correct terminology but I think it is a wing tip stall. I am able to get in behind the bogey and get some rounds off, but the plane is forever 'falling out under me' when I pull to hard. I can get a great line in lag, try to pull the nose a little more and it drops out. I am assuming this is wing tip stall and is just the way the bird handles. I also seem to be blacking out quickly.

Am I just pulling to hard, and must maybe learn to be more gentle, or is there a technique I can use to help with this. Coming from jets, I hardly use the rudder in turns and thought that might help but the Spit just pushes over.

That 109 is a animal in the climb and going after it vertically is also a challenge. Seems in all dogfights, no matter what plane I go up against in DCS, the AI likes to climb and loop, climb and loop.

Any advice, tips to help improve my chances are greatly appreciated.

You are pulling too hard on the elevators, so the wings go beyond the critical angle of attack, and the Spit enters what we call an accelerated stall. Solution: be a lot more gentle on the stick. The Spit's elevators are really sensitive just like in real life. You only need to move it back and forth by a few cm. As soon as your plane starts to shake, unload. It helps if you have a FFB stick, but I'm sure there are visible clues too.

Hi

I am only getting the hang of fighting in this too.

I agree that you have to be gentle on the stick! Keep rpm lever maxed and keep your engine within limits with the throttle. You can go maxed out for a short time in vertical chase, however keep backing off to rest the engine when your on the down. I found the biggest help was really gentle stick movements and was surprised how well it handles! Also watch ammo, as you need well aimed shots before running out

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You are pulling too hard on the elevators, so the wings go beyond the critical angle of attack, and the Spit enters what we call an accelerated stall. Solution: be a lot more gentle on the stick. The Spit's elevators are really sensitive just like in real life.

This seems to be the solution to the issue the OP is describing.

Also, certain hardware (the thrustmaster warthog sticks in particular) seem to be un-naturally difficult to use with the spitfire, requiring the judicious tweaking of the control curves in order to get a more smooth/ realistic range of movememnt and control input to the elevators and arilerons. Try to get your control surfaces sorted first (i..e reduce the saturation right down.. some of us need it as low as 40%!).

When pulling back on the stick do it slowly/ smoothly. Don't rush the input. If you are lagging your target in a turn you don't want to pull the nose from lag to lead in one go, but rather to edge or "coax" it from th elag to lead position. Once in a lead position the aerodynamics will settle and you can close to a firing position. Snapping that nose up to get a shot off quickly will often result in the AoA problme that reflected talks about.

The problem with curves is that if you don't use any, you can't make smooth adjustments, and if you use too much, the curve becomes steep and when you need ot pull hard, it will pull hard very suddenly. Therefore I rarely use curves over 20%.

What can also help with the spitfire is to get rid of the lower and upper 5% of the curve, thus flattening it without making it steeper at any point. You never need the last 5% in the Spit anyway. I'd be cautious to give up more than that, though. (Not sure what it's called in DCS)

The problem with curves is that if you don't use any, you can't make smooth adjustments, and if you use too much, the curve becomes steep and when you need ot pull hard, it will pull hard very suddenly. Therefore I rarely use curves over 20%.

 

What can also help with the spitfire is to get rid of the lower and upper 5% of the curve, thus flattening it without making it steeper at any point. You never need the last 5% in the Spit anyway. I'd be cautious to give up more than that, though. (Not sure what it's called in DCS)

Yeah.. it can be a real juggling act to to find the sweet spot.

I also found that adding a 10cm extension to my stick helped a lot.

The real aircraft has a control column length of about 80cm, so for a real pilot:

1cm of push or pull on the stick will give them 0,71 degrees of control rotation, and

1 degree of control rotation can be achieved with 1.39 cm of push or pull on the stick

With a 20-or-so cm length of a normal (non-extended) gaming joystick,

1cm of push or pull will result in 2.88 degrees of control rotation

In order to achieve 1 degree of control rotation you have to rstrict your input to just 0.34 cm push or pull

So, the real aircraft is, essentially, about 3 times less "sensitive" (i.e less twitchy) than using a gaming stick without an extension of any kind.

Even then a 10cm extension like the one I have still only puts me at slightly-worse-than-half of the real-world input sensitivity.

Check out your speed while training to make "boom and zoom".

This acrobatics is practiced by all WW2 modules, it's like a dance, you have to learn the rythm and follow.

Never let your speed fall down below 140 mph.

there is no secret but you have to keep your energy in all circumstances

Firstable train without any opponent.

Once you will be able to keep your speed above 140 mph in any conditions,you will never loose your wings in stall.

by practicing this exercise you will become gentle at the controls at the evidence.

Both Reflected & Phil's points are well said.

However, I find using a custom elevator curve gets around most of the issues raised with the least compromise

For elevator control ("Pitch") try the following values as a custom curvature -

0, 2, 4, 6, 8, 12, 16, 24, 50, 100

This will provide you much more physical stick displacement before reaching the stall point when flying with no acceleration of elevator rates within the flying range, whilst still leaving you with full up elevator for keeping pressure on the tailwheel (and making it marginally more stable) while taxying.

What you're missing is any feedback that the Spit would give you if you really flew it. Just a limitation of the sim...

Keep the ball centered as well as you can - especially when landing. I have brakes on a slider to make taxiing and landing a breeze - just a touch not a lot.

Thanks guys. Was not able to fly last night but will take a look at my curves this evening. I don't normally set curves but noticed I had to start using some for takeoff on the Spit.

Will try as suggested and try to be more gentle. I am used to the Hornet when I just yank the stick and try find as many G's as I can.

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Be conscious of the fact that as the Spitty slows she gets tail heavy - the nose will start coming up as speed drops through 180mph, which if you've broken into a hard turn and are already sitting at the limit of the wings ability to keep producing lift, can be enough to push you into the stall; be prepared to reduce pressure a fraction on the stick further at this point, and progressively so if you're choosing to let the speed drop further.

Be advised though once you're grinding around cutting circles in the sky at sub-160 you won't have many options; if I can I generally aim to keep at 180 or above (you can outturn most of your opposition at this speed anyway) with very brief sojourns to 160 or 140 if I really have to, unloading the airframe as soon as possible to regain energy.

I found switching from a CH FigherStick to the VKB Gunfighter with extension made a huge difference giving me more precision when flying WWII birds. Landing these planes is far easier now.

Grant it, I find the DCS Spitfire is a particularly difficult plane to fly and maneuver. Very sensitive and very powerful!

This is where the new modem generation of flight sticks such as the virpil and the VKB will really show their worth. It’s as if my Virpil was actually designed for the spitfire and both sim, and stick, with their mutual hypersensitivity compliment each other amazingly.

fly her wit love, gentle on sensitiv command, do large aerobatics curves first to handle her, and keep a good speed.

joystick curves can help on pitch

gentle but constant also on throttle to avoid brutal torque.

practice this :

trim correctly, be aware of cruise and max clim RPM and manifold settings.

and finally get a blast flying her, with nice user skins, and Jafa sound merlin mod.

first of all :

1) handle and train ground taxiing and the " rudder dance "

2) train proper nice take off and maintain her on wheel two point before a unwanted take off

3) once in her set her on best motor settings soft

4) on a 109 get it on end of its climb , max climb power settings. if you think you're close enough to fire, just wait and go closer again

5) practice practice practice

Hey Guys

Thanks for all the info. I have managed to tame the pitch quite a bit which is helping and not hampering my manoeuvrability in the spit. Patients is key her when lining up the bad guys.

Loving this plane, just wish I had more time to fly her.

Hi TechRoss

did you try the pitch curves as suggested?

Thanks

Neal

Hi TechRoss

 

did you try the pitch curves as suggested?

 

Thanks

 

Neal

Yeah that is what I mean. I have my pitch under control nicely now. Much better when I pull the stick now. :thumbup:

Wow so today I flew about 5 hours on the Burning Sky Server. Got my ass handed to me time after time. Those 109s are just so powerful, I see them, I try to evade they kill me. At least I am getting tons of start up, taxi and take off practice.

Any of you guys flying on this server, maybe in the GMT time zone? I could sure use a wingman in there.

Wow so today I flew about 5 hours on the Burning Sky Server. Got my ass handed to me time after time. Those 109s are just so powerful, I see them, I try to evade they kill me. At least I am getting tons of start up, taxi and take off practice.

 

Any of you guys flying on this server, maybe in the GMT time zone? I could sure use a wingman in there.

Was there too... It's a GREEATTTT server, about to be "sponsored" by DCS ! Only problem is that presently I only own one module - the Spitfire - to use with it, and they're going Normandy starting early 2019...

Will wait for a promotional sale...

Was there too... It's a GREEATTTT server, about to be "sponsored" by DCS ! Only problem is that presently I only own one module - the Spitfire - to use with it, and they're going Normandy starting early 2019...

 

Will wait for a promotional sale...

What time do you fly? I am GMT +2 and think a wingman would help a lot against those German planes.

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Yeah I got Normandy and the assets pack on the sale but boss, I mean wife, I making wait till Christmas to have them.

 

What time do you fly? I am GMT +2 and think a wingman would help a lot against those German planes.

 

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I'm erratic in my use of the Servers, and sims :-/

Also, since wife-bound, in as far as sound propagation goes from the sim area.. no way for me to use comms :-/

I tried TeamSpeak long ago, but had to give up. I use Discord but just for some message groups and chatting with friends.

I'll login as "jcomm" shoul you see me there at the BSS.