Index vs Reverb

So it seems like the reverb with its higher res is a market-killer. On paper, should blow all competitors out of the water.

But I've just dropped a chunk on an Index.

Does the Index have any advantages over the reverb? Have I made the wrong call?

So it seems like the reverb with its higher res is a market-killer. On paper, should blow all competitors out of the water.

 

But I've just dropped a chunk on an Index.

 

Does the Index have any advantages over the reverb? Have I made the wrong call?

Well considering it has the same resolution as the Original Odyssey, Vive Pro and the Odyssey+, the index is just another gen 1 - 1.5 headset. Not to mention the Odyssey+ has the Anti-SDE filter which surpasses the original Odyssey and Vive Pro in terms of visuals. Take that for what you will.

The Index beats the Vive Pro - which I used to have - on all counts, across the board. At least on paper.

And it sounds like the Index counters SDE with more than just a filter screen.

Although - stupid me - I just rememberd that I *havnt* actually dropped any money on an Index yet, I've only pre-ordered, of course :doh:

Is the general consensus that the Reverb is going to be the top of the range?

On paper the Index has better optics, and a bit wider field of view. Also runs at a lower resolution, which may mean that aliasing will still be a problem and require super sampling/aggressive AA.

Reverb has a much higher pixel density, but a lower FoV. Optics will be worse than the Index, but it's hard to say how much that will matter.

Honestly right now? It's too soon to say which will be the better HMD for DCS. Neither are in the hands of consumers.

I can add that even with the decent resolution of the vive pro, I could still commonly see fresnel-artifacts, and deeper towards the center than just peripheral vision. I get the feeling that that optics in the Vive are responsible for some of the difficulty in reading instruments - hence the popularity of lens mods.

*edit*

After a bit of googling...

Oh, so reverb has inside-out, 2 camera tracking? Score one for the Index. Outside-in is going to be the highest fidelity tracking for a while yet, and the Index base stations are quite improved over current lighthouses.

Tracks controllers only in your FOV? Score 2 for Index.

Visible "mura" (uneven backlighting) in the display? Not great. Apparently about equivalent to a SDE.

Fixed IPD. Really not great.

Fresnel lenses about on par with the Vive. Meh.

At this time, my opinion is that the increased res is great, but its going to severely affect FPS, and with the above Im still leaning towards investing in the Index system. It certainly has the most advanced controllers available (not really applicable to DCS, but DCS is not the only VR app).

The Index beats the Vive Pro - which I used to have - on all counts, across the board. At least on paper.

 

And it sounds like the Index counters SDE with more than just a filter screen.

 

Although - stupid me - I just rememberd that I *havnt* actually dropped any money on an Index yet, I've only pre-ordered, of course :doh:

 

 

 

Is the general consensus that the Reverb is going to be the top of the range?

What about the Index counters SDE? it is the same resolution and is an RGB screen. It will still have plenty of SDE to go around. Am I missing something in the specs?

It's a matter of priority.

If you play others room scale game, you may be better with Rift S/ Imdex. (Controllers and light house for Index).

But if you're mainly playing car/ flight simulators I think the Reverb will be better, you won't use the controllers that much.

Tracking on WMR headset had proved to be good enough for the headset, the only problem being some dead spot for controllers.

One test was very picky about mura effect on one headset. It isn't enough to bury the Reverb yet.

I don't think the lens are bad enough to negate the effect of higher pixel density.

MRTV first report on Reverb is quite good about clarity.

You don't notice the mura effect on screenshot though the lens.

People playing on 1440p headsets like 5K+ still add super sampling.

I don't think Reverb will that much more taxing on performance, you will need less super sampling if any at all.

1600p on Index is barely above 1440p.

And finally the Reverb is 40% cheaper.

PS: anti SDE filters are the same as pass through filters on digital cameras. It adds blue to the image and degrade sharpness.

Not something I want...

What about the Index counters SDE? it is the same resolution and is an RGB screen. It will still have plenty of SDE to go around. Am I missing something in the specs?

The display tech in the Index has a physical pixel layout that physically does not have as much dead space, significantly reducing SDE. This has the added bonus of also enhancing "percieved" resolution as the pixel layout more reliably produces clear lines. Apparently anyway.

I looked up a couple of examples of "pentile" OLED (Vive et al) vs LCD (Index), that were unrelated to these particular headsets. In the OLED image, you could easily recognise the SDE as what you see in the Vives, in the LCD example it was much reduced.

Here:

(if you de-magnify the image a bit, you will see the SDE "jump out" on the left part of the image. Either way, both are the same resolution, but the LCD gives improved clarity.)

Vive et al do *not* have RGB screens, they are GB/GR screens (pixels alternate between GB and GR) this is why the SDE is so pronounced.

I dont know what display tech the Reverb uses.

The display tech in the Index has a physical pixel layout that physically does not have as much dead space, significantly reducing SDE. This has the added bonus of also enhancing "percieved" resolution as the pixel layout more reliably produces clear lines. Apparently anyway.

 

I looked up a couple of examples of "pentile" OLED (Vive et al) vs LCD (Index), that were unrelated to these particular headsets. In the OLED image, you could easily recognise the SDE as what you see in the Vives, in the LED example it was much reduced.

 

Here:

 

(if you de-magnify the image a bit, you will see the SDE "jump out" on the left image. Either way, both are the same resolution, but the LCD gives improved clarity.)

 

Vive et al do *not* have RGB screens, they are GB/GR screens (pixels alternate between GB and GR) this is why the SDE is so pronounced.

 

I dont know what display tech the Reverb uses.

Interesting. Thanks!

Tell you waht guys, if we all chip in, I can buy a Reverb and an Index and Ill write an in depth comparison.

Deal?

:lol::lol::lol::lol::lol:

I've already pre-ordered both but no idea when they will arrive. IMO the 2x resolution of the Reverb is going to easily make it the winner.

I've already pre-ordered both but no idea when they will arrive. IMO the 2x resolution of the Reverb is going to easily make it the winner.

agreed

I've already pre-ordered both but no idea when they will arrive. IMO the 2x resolution of the Reverb is going to easily make it the winner.

Ok but resolution is only one aspect of hmd.

See Pimax situation :helpsmilie::helpsmilie::helpsmilie:

Mostly what everyone else is saying.

The Reverb

Plusses:

"should be" much clearer, higher res + RGB stripe + lower FOV = more pixels per FOV

Minuses reported.

Possible Mura problems (likely software fixable)

Shitty controllers/controller tracking (non issue for DCS IMO)

Its likely gonna be a bear to run due to more pixels pushed.

Index

Plusses

Double lens system, hard to say what impact this will have, no through the lens shots that I've seen.

Current Gen res. At least you know you can run it.

Slightly wider FOV which can be a plus or minus depending on what you want.

Cool controllers (irrelevant to DCS)

Lighthouse tracking

Minuses Reported

Really bad God rays due to double lens system. How bad, who knows

Cost.

The one thing that no one has brought up about the Index yet, is the lens system, and how it might be similar to the Xtal... That is one possibility that might make the index a better system if the optics do something like the Xtal optics do.

Mostly what everyone else is saying.

 

The Reverb

Plusses:

"should be" much clearer, higher res + RGB stripe + lower FOV = more pixels per FOV

Minuses reported.

Possible Mura problems (likely software fixable)

Shitty controllers/controller tracking (non issue for DCS IMO)

Its likely gonna be a bear to run due to more pixels pushed.

 

Index

Plusses

Double lens system, hard to say what impact this will have, no through the lens shots that I've seen.

Current Gen res. At least you know you can run it.

Slightly wider FOV which can be a plus or minus depending on what you want.

Cool controllers (irrelevant to DCS)

Lighthouse tracking

 

Minuses Reported

Really bad God rays due to double lens system. How bad, who knows

Cost.

 

The one thing that no one has brought up about the Index yet, is the lens system, and how it might be similar to the Xtal... That is one possibility that might make the index a better system if the optics do something like the Xtal optics do.

double lens system could mean better use of the screen and in that case, the PPD will be incremented.

double lens system could mean better use of the screen and in that case, the PPD will be incremented.

It may or may not. It all depends on what it actually is. Double lens really doesn't tell you anything aside from the fact there are 2 lenses. It could be totally useless, or it might mean better FOV, clearer FOV, all the way to something like the XTAL. No one knows, and I have yet to see a through the lens pic of it. The only thing reported was that it mainly gives you large FOV and sweet spot but also caused some bad god rays and the fact there is still noticable SDE, which isn't great news.

I wouldn't even put a lot of trust in through the lens pics.

Actual user reports is what I will be looking forward to, and that may be a while.

I wouldn't even put a lot of trust in through the lens pics.

Actual user reports is what I will be looking forward to, and that may be a while.

Agreed, but at least through the lens is something...

Some interesting discussion including the Index, Reverb and others here, in a Sim-Racing context, which I judge to have similar needs to ours:

Keys points:

Not everyone thinks the higher res on the reverb is an instant choice

On the other hand, it is probably considered the most reliable choice, in that high res is a dead-cert bonus, whereas finicky things like pixel fill, refresh rate and lens geometry have to be seen really, to know for sure how much they add.

They talk alot about FPS halving (120Hz to 60Hz vs 90Hz to 45Hz) if you cant push enough frames. The Index's 144Hz "experimental" mode could enable a 72Hz mode, actually increasing options for less high-end users.

Mention of "gestalt" of components rather than leaning on one very good feature (it seems to me, at least, that the Index is a more complete package, even if it loses the resolution competition)

Lighthouse tracking more respected than inside-out

Valve more respected to know what gamers need (Reverb *is* marketed more towards enterprise customers)

Pimax 5+ has excellent resolution but is not talked about in terms of being the best of the best

Nobody is talking about the "expandability" of the Index, that front port.

Is anyone here expecting much from that area?

As a personal note, I've heard almost nothing about the Reverb audio, and the headphones look extremely generic. Whereas the audio on the Index is a major selling point.

You can probably tell Im kinda instinctively leaning towards the Index at this point. Also cooler name.

Just found out about XTAL. Jesus...

Nobody is talking about the "expandability" of the Index, that front port.

Because no one knows about it really.

Such slots are very typically gimmick ones in the consumer electronics. If the product doesn't get launched from the start with at least 5-10 different kind parts you can attach to it, then you are not likely going to see anything in it.

That has happened in the smartphones, laptops, tablets, PC's etc. you just name it. When there is promised a non-standard (universally usable via any manufacturer on any device) then it doesn't end well.

If such port would be standard for next versions of HMD, like Rift S, Index, Reverb etc, then there would be a change to see something for it. But as it is just for that one unique item, there is way too high probability that you will see like 1-2 parts for it at best and then they are useless after couple years.

We are not talking about USB ports here. We are not talking about a memory card slots etc that has gone through standards and commitment from the main manufacturers. And such things will fail.

Ok but resolution is only one aspect of hmd.

See Pimax situation :helpsmilie::helpsmilie::helpsmilie:

Resolution is two edged sword. While you can get nicer definition, but you will pay a lot for it via resource requirements. And if you can't push data to native resolution, you will get worse image quality than a lower resolution panel does at the native resolution.

And once we have higher resolution, it requires far more graphical content, and that again push far more resources.

So jumping too soon to too high resolution, means you will suffer more and enjoy less than taking something "less advanced".

Like I said many times, Reverb resolution is more or less CV1 with SS = 1.9...but in native resolution.

I think there are a couple of players who already are running current headset near the Reverb resolution because of super sampling/ pixel density...you name it.

Of course it isn't for everyone. HP says GTX1080 minimum.

Index vs Reverb

I preordered the Index and going to wait a bit more to decide regarding Reverb purchase.

I have no doubt that the Reverb is going to trump the Index in terms of clarity. Nobody would pick a 2K over a 4K resolution in gaming, unless your hardware can’t drive them effectively.

The reason for me going for the Index first is because I play other VR games, and room scaling with perpetual controller tracking is important to me. If I only play DCS then I would go for the Reverb, actually no I would probably go for the Acer OJO for physical IPD option.

Like I said many times, Reverb resolution is more or less CV1 with SS = 1.9...but in native resolution.

 

 

I think there are a couple of players who already are running current headset near the Reverb resolution because of super sampling/ pixel density...you name it.

 

 

Of course it isn't for everyone. HP says GTX1080 minimum.

Yup. Currently running my Rift at 2.0PD.

If I only play DCS then I would go for the Reverb, actually no I would probably go for the Acer OJO for physical IPD option.

And what is your real IPD measurement ?

Because on one hand, the companies tell us that their headset will fit the vast majority of people without IPD adjustment, on the other hand, everybody seems to complain of lack of IPD.

When I take a ruler in front of the miror (I know, not very scientific measurement :D), it seems I'm very close to 64mm.

Am I the only one or what ?