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Cannot kill tank (T-72) with GAU-8 Gun


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Don't forget the fact that tanks in DCS have healthbars and depending on the angle of you and the tank as well as on what part you're shooting at it has different modifiers for the damage calculations. So all the armour values are good and nice, but don't reflect what we are seeing in DCS at all.

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I can kill an MBT with one round...of AGM-65. Works every time, and I don't get chewed up by the MBTs 12.7mm guns. :D

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Just a thought, but even if the 30mm doesn't penetrate the armour surely there is scabbing off the inside?

 

Not too likely IMO. That tends to happen for larger weapons hitting older tanks that have not received ANY upgrades at all. The term is "spalling", and pretty much any decent army with even a modest budget, have long ago upgraded even their oldest tanks and many APC's to have internal "spall liners", basically kevlar panels that trap the steel fragments of spalling. Thus protected. And we aren't even considering kevlar that some tank crews mIGHT sometimes wear inside the tank during a particularly risky hour. Of course that's rare because air conditioning is also rare in most tanks.

 

Edit::

If the 30mm was an explosive round, and hit an APC that did not get a spall liner, not get standoff armor, or explosive reactive armor, then yes, it would likely have a bit of spalling flying around inside creating chaos.


Edited by Rick50
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A T-72M, the crappiest version, has 400mm or so across the frontal arcs, well outside the pen capabilities of a 30mm at ANY range or angle, even if very poor by modern tank standards. You would chew it up real good, blow out optics, stun the crew etc, get a mission kill probably, but not ''kill'' it. From the rear or above you can pen, though, allowing a ''true kill''.

^^ It's all this really. If there's a problem, it's less in the weapons* and more in the simplified damage model that DCS employs for ground units, where you can only semi-disable units, or outright kill them, and not much else. The far more common outcome of a mission kill is not really part of the game logic (although you can add it with a bunch of scripting).

 

 

Conceivably, that could be “fixed’ with a few more damage states along various points of the HP bar, and maybe even (from a mission design/scripting standpoint) counting a unit as “killed” long before it actually explodes, but that's a kind of gigantic unit overhaul that could easily bring all other development to a stand-still for quite a while and would most likely break all kinds of legacy scripting.

 

 

 

* Except for maybe blast damage, which dwindles at slightly silly rates even over short distances.


Edited by Tippis

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You have to bear in mind, tanks are built to resist hits from guns 105mm and up. We're dishing it out with a 30mm.

 

 

It can work through sheer number of hits, but you still need to get lucky.

 

You also need to remember that yes tanks are designed to take hits from a 105mm...from the front...that's where the armor is thickest. The armor is not the same thickness every where on the tank. And you can make the point only 1-2 bullets penetrate...but if an API round gets through the hull and into the crew compartment...it's not just going to rattle around like a .22 round in a beer can...it explodes.

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You also need to remember that yes tanks are designed to take hits from a 105mm...from the front...that's where the armor is thickest. The armor is not the same thickness every where on the tank. And you can make the point only 1-2 bullets penetrate...but if an API round gets through the hull and into the crew compartment...it's not just going to rattle around like a .22 round in a beer can...it explodes.

 

We also need to remember that the core of the A-10 ammo is made of Depleted Uranium, which is one of the most dense metal of the planet earth. The kinetic energy deployed by this is tremendously high. I doubt that anyone would survive a round penetrating inside the hull of a tank.

 

By the way, very interesting article about the nature of the A-10 ammo ... and how the military could start to use Tungsten instead of depleted Uranium.

 

https://www.thedrive.com/the-war-zone/20875/a-10-warthogs-may-stop-firing-controversial-depleted-uranium-ammunition-for-good

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Back when I was editor @combatsim.com, I had a writer/friend named Andy Bush, who was a retired USAF pilot, that flew the F4 in Vietnam, the F104, F15, and the A10 as well. He had a lot of A10 time in Europe during the Cold War. I'll look up some of his articles/posts I've saved, but he echoes much of what's being said here IIRC - the A10 was NOT optimal for killing T6x,T72, T80, etc Soviet tanks with the GAU 8 30mm.

 

 

 

Lining up for the optimal shot, a low altitude/slant range shot from the rear of the tanks, also put the A10 right over the Soviet primary AAA defenses like the ZSU23/4 and other mobile SAMS and guns - bad news. 30mm was great vs AFV and trucks, in fact that was its primary purpose from what he wrote and said, not killing heavy MBTs. Lots of 30mm ammunition also meant a lot of logistical vehicles in the enemy rear could be zapped per mission, while the M1 tanks and AH1/AH64 used their missiles vs Soviet tanks.

 

 

 

Again, I'll find some of his articles and post links later tonight.

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I've only killed an MBT once with the gun and it was by accident. I mistook it for a BMP-2. (Yea, I know, incredibly brave to do a gun run on 360-noscope-BMP-monster.) I fired the standard 2nd burst, then recognised it was an MBT, and was rather annoyed because I thought I'd wasted 200 odd rounds. Then it died. <insert surprised pikachu>

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you can 100% kill even T-90s with GAU-8 ingame, you just need to get unwisely close and come in very high.

 

 

usually it's a death sentence if the tanks are defended and/or lucky, which is why it's not generally done.

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i would like to interject some real world experience. the colloquial definition of a tank is MBT. heavy and large gun enough to kill another MBT (hopefully). the preferred round to kill another MBT is a SABOT. this is a penetrator based projectile that uses purely kinetic energy. i was an M60 crewman for 4 years in middle 80s. the SABOT round traveled a 2.2 km in a second. it was about 1 inch in diameter so a lot of force in a small area. think of a pin can puncture a balloon by just touching but a hammer with same force will move it. the AP round on an A10 is taking advantage of the penetration force. penetrator round is cheaper than rounds that explode. HEAT rounds are used too which have their own physics. just my 2 cents.

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Back when I was editor @combatsim.com, I had a writer/friend named Andy Bush, who was a retired USAF pilot, that flew the F4 in Vietnam, the F104, F15, and the A10 as well. He had a lot of A10 time in Europe during the Cold War. I'll look up some of his articles/posts I've saved, but he echoes much of what's being said here IIRC - the A10 was NOT optimal for killing T6x,T72, T80, etc Soviet tanks with the GAU 8 30mm.

 

 

 

Lining up for the optimal shot, a low altitude/slant range shot from the rear of the tanks, also put the A10 right over the Soviet primary AAA defenses like the ZSU23/4 and other mobile SAMS and guns - bad news. 30mm was great vs AFV and trucks, in fact that was its primary purpose from what he wrote and said, not killing heavy MBTs. Lots of 30mm ammunition also meant a lot of logistical vehicles in the enemy rear could be zapped per mission, while the M1 tanks and AH1/AH64 used their missiles vs Soviet tanks.

 

 

 

Again, I'll find some of his articles and post links later tonight.

 

 

IIRC back in the 70's-80's A10 guys were literally issued coloring books, so they would color in the parts of whichever Txx they could penetrate so they would memorize the areas they could and couldn't penetrate with the GAU-8. With some apologies about the pre-PC language to our younger millennial members that have grown up in a kinder and gentler world. And luckily since its from 1977 its fully forum rule compliant.

 

 

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I should add this is of course irrelevant to our Ultra realistic "combat simulator" at the moment, because our tanks use hitpoints as I've been told.


Edited by Harlikwin

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We also need to remember that the core of the A-10 ammo is made of Depleted Uranium, which is one of the most dense metal of the planet earth. The kinetic energy deployed by this is tremendously high. I doubt that anyone would survive a round penetrating inside the hull of a tank.

 

By the way, very interesting article about the nature of the A-10 ammo ... and how the military could start to use Tungsten instead of depleted Uranium.

 

https://www.thedrive.com/the-war-zone/20875/a-10-warthogs-may-stop-firing-controversial-depleted-uranium-ammunition-for-good

 

Well, its also pyrophoric... Which is both good and bad, depending on your point of view...

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IIRC, there is only one kind of round for the GAU that actually uses the uranium, and I don't think it's in the sim anyways. According to an A-10 pilot on the Fighter Pilot Podcast, the only place they are stationed where it is still used is Korea.

 

Not at all surprising. The Euro's banned all DU. And its not like there is much use for it in most theaters of war where you aren't planning for a mechanized Zerg Rush.

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IIRC, there is only one kind of round for the GAU that actually uses the uranium, and I don't think it's in the sim anyways. According to an A-10 pilot on the Fighter Pilot Podcast, the only place they are stationed where it is still used is Korea.

 

Interesting, did they say that they were using the new Tungsten one?

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Hi guys,

 

I bought the A-10C last winter during a sale and left it brand new in the hangar for few months. Did not fly it once ... I was busy with other aircraft.

 

But I started to fly it last weekend and LOVE that beast so far. Lot to learn from it, but it goes in pretty well.

 

Here is my question: I am quite proficient with the GAU-8 for many targets, but I am not able to kill tank with it AT ALL. If I set an old T-72 and fill it with bullet, I see sparks flying everywhere ... but the left damage status labels never shows any damage.

 

I tried to come closer and closer ... and literally send dozens on rounds right on it ... nothing. What am I missing? I am using Combat Mix ammo, which I understand is a mix of armor piercing and explosive ammo.

 

 

Wow. Another tank killer post. I have not been flying the Hog for quite a while now, but this question pops up regularly.

 

You are not going to destroy a modern armoured vehicle much larger than an APC with a 30mm cannon, esp if equipped with reactive armour, unless you get very lucky.

 

Main battle tanks are best attacked from the rear with the intention of of disabling the engine rather than watching it brew up in a pillar of fire. The only sure way is with a mav from some altitude so it comes down from a high angle.

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Interesting, did they say that they were using the new Tungsten one?

 

uranium rounds when they hit a target spray radiation. tungsten does not. uranium is slightly heavier which means more force when it hits something.

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uranium rounds when they hit a target spray radiation. tungsten does not. uranium is slightly heavier which means more force when it hits something.

 

LOL, nope... :megalol:

 

Its depleted uranium so not radioactive. DU is pyrophoric which several folks have already pointed out. And the residual heavy metal contamination and DU nano particles do pose health risks.

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DU rounds dont spray radiation. Nothings "sprays" radiation.

 

The issue with DU rounds is that DU tends to burn upon impact. Depending on the armor you are shooting at this may also reduce penetration, but if you penetrate the effect is quite nice.

The problem however is that this leaves a very fine, powdery ashe that is still radioactive to some extend. Those particles are very small, light and fine and can be inhaled very easy. Having those dusty particles in your body is what ****es you up over time.

 

edit: uh didnt see harlis post.

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On T series tanks in DCS , the aim point should be the rear engine lid and turret. Attacking from front, damages tanks, but does not knock it out.

Turn on BDA real time option. It displays damage amount to the target.

 

In real world, US Army and USAF published a pamphlet and videos training aids called; "Crack That Tank". Some are on YT. It shows weakest areas and aim points on specific tank.

USAF published its version for A-10A crews.

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Basically, the gun was only meant to penetrate APC's and only the OLDEST Russian tanks (T-50, T-60 series). Last I read, max armor penetration is about 90mm RHS. I don't bother trying to shoot tanks with the gun. That's what missiles and rockets are for.

 

 

The only damage your going to do against a tank, with the gun, is tracks, main gun, secondary guns, lights, scopes, etc. Lucky kill against the engine.

 

 

Not sure how much any of this is modeled in DCS.

 

 

In real world, US Army and USAF published a pamphlet and videos training aids called; "Crack That Tank". Some are on YT. It shows weakest areas and aim points on specific tank.

USAF published its version for A-10A crews.

 

 

Cool! I'll have to look for those.


Edited by 3WA
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