Flashing radar on while in EO mode for Russian planes

I'm wondering why you wouldn't get a lock tone if a Russian plane is tracking you in EO, then he turns on his radar for example, to IFF you. As far as I know, you only get a spike, unless the missile actually leaves the rail, then you get a launch+lock. Is this accurate? Shouldn't the radar be in track mode as soon as you turn it on since you're tracking someone in EO mode already? Thanks.

EO + ILL does not give any search/track/lock/launch warning

EORL +ILL will give a lock warning.

From pure EO only, one press of the radar toggle enables EO/ILL, a second press gives EORL which will spike the target. EDIT: This is wrong...Turning OFF EO will give you a full radar lock (RL/ILL). Second press of radar key turns the radar off.

Having EO enabled gives a laser warning to anyone in the FOV (IIRC) within 5nmi or so (10km maybe?).

EDIT: EO/ILL will enable IFF, as well.

Having EO enabled gives a laser warning to anyone in the FOV (IIRC) within 5nmi or so (10km maybe?).

The laser ranger is only active when tracking a target with IRST in STT. Scanning with IRST will not use the laser.

Edit: Laser range for OLS-27 against airborne target is stated as 4km IIRC.

I wondered this as well. Should it not give a lock tone briefly if you switch radar on and off? Cause you effectively lock it really briefly if i'm correct? Because if i keep my radar on instead of just flash it he will get a lock tone. Or am i seeing this wrong?

The laser ranger is only active when tracking a target with IRST in STT. Scanning with IRST will not use the laser.

 

Edit: Laser range for OLS-27 against airborne target is stated as 4km IIRC.

Well, it's DCS...I'll look into that a bit more. All I know is this: You get an LWS spike in the A-10C from a non-ground threat direction (or if you're way above ground threats, etc.) - Break and defend! :joystick:

I wondered this as well. Should it not give a lock tone briefly if you switch radar on and off? Cause you effectively lock it really briefly if i'm correct? Because if i keep my radar on instead of just flash it he will get a lock tone. Or am i seeing this wrong?

If you go to the combined tracking mode (EORL) the target'll get spiked. EO with ILL at the bottom of the HUD won't spike the guy...It's only the IFF array emitting at the target, not the radar.

That explains it. So basically i don't have to flash it at all? Or will it keep IFF'ing in that mode until i turn the radar back of? Probably the latter.. But just to be sure.

If you go to the combined tracking mode (EORL) the target'll get spiked. EO with ILL at the bottom of the HUD won't spike the guy...It's only the IFF array emitting at the target, not the radar.

That, but the radar is in fact used even when you're in "EO only" mode. The system uses the radar in a low power, low frequency mode for ranging when outside of laser range. This mode is supposed to be LPI for older RWRs so it's more or less realistic that it doesn't trigger our RWRs.

Okay, say the scenario is:

In a Flanker or Fulcrum, you use "Only EO" and sneak up on a target. You decide to use ERs.

At this moment, the LA will be flashing because you don't have your radar on since you're in "Only EO" mode.

If you hold the weapon release button, it will automatically turn on the radar, give you a solid LA. So this will cause a lock tone at the enemy plane right? (Keep holding weapons release or press it again and it will launch the missile)

But what if you hit the radar button manually? That will turn on only "EO + ILL" would it not? So no lock tone and yet you are able to fire your ERs...

Understood fully now.

Okay, say the scenario is:

 

In a Flanker or Fulcrum, you use "Only EO" and sneak up on a target. You decide to use ERs.

 

At this moment, the LA will be flashing because you don't have your radar on since you're in "Only EO" mode.

 

If you hold the weapon release button, it will automatically turn on the radar, give you a solid LA. So this will cause a lock tone at the enemy plane right? (Keep holding weapons release or press it again and it will launch the missile)

 

But what if you hit the radar button manually? That will turn on only "EO + ILL" would it not? So no lock tone and yet you are able to fire your ERs...

That's probably a bug in that case. The IFF system uses different antennae to the actual radar, so with only the IFF system emitting an R-27ER would have no reflected radar energy for guidance. That being said, it might be complicated by the fact that the real Su-27 EOS has a feature whereby if it's tracking a target that it then loses due to for example the target flying in to cloud, it will activate the radar to maintain a lock.

Just to complicate things further, in a heavy ECM environment the EOS can be used to direct the radar in missile guidance mode in order to enable launch of a SARH missile even if the radar itself can't achieve a lock by the normal method.

Su27 radar loses lock too easily regardless of EOS on and proper mode. Highly unstable comparing to other fighters.

Su27 radar loses lock too easily regardless of EOS on and proper mode. Highly unstable comparing to other fighters.

Maybe that's a side-effect of flaws from the N001 being modeled? It has some problem with ground clutter when rolling at low altitude for example.

I brought this exact issue up a few times..

Reguardless of low power or high power mode. RWR is not triggered by signal strength perse'. it is triggered by frequency specific wavelengths above the noise floor. If there is enough energy for the emitting aircraft to receive and calculate telemetry then the targeted aircraft has way more then enough to calculate a spike.

Anything above the noise floor can be considered a spike. The question is how long above the noise floor is actually not rejected as a erroneous.

I've made my case and some have said that it's rejected. In my opinion rejected signals should only be in the pico seconds. a radar sending a long enough burst to do telemetry is going to be above the noise floor much longer then true erroneous spikes.

just my .02

The radar in this mode might only transmit a couple pulses every now and then. A RWR needs multiple pulses to even register the new emitter not even mentioning calculating angle of arrival and ID.

We don't know the waveform used by the N001 in this mode but it's safe to assume that it was LPI against RWRs of the generation that was in service at the time of it's introduction.

That's a good rule of thumb for LPI in general. If the receiver is from the same or earlier time frame as transmitter then a claimed LPI waveform is probably working. Newer receiver tend to detect older LPI signals.

..

From pure EO only, one press of the radar toggle enables EO/ILL, a second press gives EORL which will spike the target...

Let me preface this by saying that I seldom use the OLS as my primary attack mode. So I'm looking for some education here. I'm having a hard time with this. How do you get from EO + ILL (which will only happen with the target locked with OLS as primary) to EORL using a 2nd radar key press. A 2nd press of the "R" key drops you back to EO only as it turns the radar off. What am I missing?

The only way I know to get from EO+ILL to EORL using key presses is to either 1) while in EO+ILL with the target locked, press the "Return to Search" key which makes the Radar Search and Track system the primary sensor mode at which point you will have to relock the target with radar because you are in Survey (Search) mode or 2) press and hold the "Launch" key with a radar guided missile selected which makes the Search and Track Radar system primary with the target locked because that puts you into Track mode. Is there a third way that I'm missing?

Let me preface this by saying that I seldom use the OLS as my primary attack mode. So I'm looking for some education here. I'm having a hard time with this. How do you get from EO + ILL (which will only happen with the target locked with OLS as primary) to EORL using a 2nd radar key press. A 2nd press of the "R" key drops you back to EO only as it turns the radar off. What am I missing?

 

The only way I know to get from EO+ILL to EORL using key presses is to either 1) while in EO+ILL with the target locked, press the "Return to Search" key which makes the Radar Search and Track system the primary sensor mode at which point you will have to relock the target with radar because you are in Survey (Search) mode or 2) press and hold the "Launch" key with a radar guided missile selected which makes the Search and Track Radar system primary with the target locked because that puts you into Track mode. Is there a third way that I'm missing?

Yes, although this will only put you into RL mode. You can, with a target locked in EO+ILL press O once to turn EO off, this will force the FCS into RL. Similarly you can force an EO lock from EORL if you press I.

Yes, although this will only put you into RL mode. You can, with a target locked in EO+ILL press O once to turn EO off, this will force the FCS into RL. Similarly you can force an EO lock from EORL if you press I.

Ah yes. Of course. Approach it from the opposite direction. :)

Let me preface this by saying that I seldom use the OLS as my primary attack mode. So I'm looking for some education here. I'm having a hard time with this. How do you get from EO + ILL (which will only happen with the target locked with OLS as primary) to EORL using a 2nd radar key press. A 2nd press of the "R" key drops you back to EO only as it turns the radar off. What am I missing?

 

The only way I know to get from EO+ILL to EORL using key presses is to either 1) while in EO+ILL with the target locked, press the "Return to Search" key which makes the Radar Search and Track system the primary sensor mode at which point you will have to relock the target with radar because you are in Survey (Search) mode or 2) press and hold the "Launch" key with a radar guided missile selected which makes the Search and Track Radar system primary with the target locked because that puts you into Track mode. Is there a third way that I'm missing?

Yes, although this will only put you into RL mode. You can, with a target locked in EO+ILL press O once to turn EO off, this will force the FCS into RL. Similarly you can force an EO lock from EORL if you press I.

Ah yes. Of course. Approach it from the opposite direction. :)

Perhaps that's what I'm doing, then. IDK, I have a bunch of HOTAS buttons bound and I don't think about it very much. :smilewink:

I'll go test this and see what I'm actually doing. :)

EDIT: Yup, I was wrong! Corrected the post above.

There was a glitch though and i'm not sure if it's still there

If you have an enemy locked with the radar the turn the OLS on, then turn the radar off, the locked enemy will still continue to get a radar lock warning.

I'm wondering why you wouldn't get a lock tone if a Russian plane is tracking you in EO, then he turns on his radar for example, to IFF you. As far as I know, you only get a spike, unless the missile actually leaves the rail, then you get a launch+lock. Is this accurate? Shouldn't the radar be in track mode as soon as you turn it on since you're tracking someone in EO mode already? Thanks.

The radar itself is off in your scenario, until a missile is launched. In which case the radar needs to support the R-27R/ER.

Concerning the first part..

The radar is separate from the IFF system. The IFF system isnt tracking you, its only broadcasting its interrogation signal in the direction the IFF antenna is slaved to. In this case the IFF antenna is slaved to the EO target being passively tracked. If an accurate reply is detected, the passive track is identified as friendly. If not hostile.

Assuming the US RWR could detect the IFF interrogation, which is at a much lower frequency than normal radar signals, then it could inform the US pilot. Though in order to get a bearing on the Russian IFF source, the US RWR would need a number of low band antennas to perform amplitude or phase comparison. IMO this is probably asking too much based on the number and size of the antennas needed. Though a single antenna could be used to just inform, but no direction of the signal would be available. also, assuming any RWR could see an IFF signal, theres no way of knowing if its from a fighter, AWACS, ground station, or ship. In fact, a number of Russian IFF sources would being pinging all the aircraft non-stop. So it would be useless to detect IFF anyway, as it'd be going off every second.

As it goes, there is no information indicating that the F-15 RWR can detect the Russian IFF signal. Thus, IFF to your hearts content. Just keep your radar OFF.

The radar in this mode might only transmit a couple pulses every now and then. A RWR needs multiple pulses to even register the new emitter not even mentioning calculating angle of arrival and ID.

We don't know the waveform used by the N001 in this mode but it's safe to assume that it was LPI against RWRs of the generation that was in service at the time of it's introduction.

 

That's a good rule of thumb for LPI in general. If the receiver is from the same or earlier time frame as transmitter then a claimed LPI waveform is probably working. Newer receiver tend to detect older LPI signals.

You are referring to a range burst, where only a burst of 5-10 pulses are transmitted every second or so. I do not believe this is in DCS...

The OP was only referring to IFF + EO. I'm pretty sure if you have both your radar and EO on, the target's RWR will be spiked.

You are referring to a range burst, where only a burst of 5-10 pulses are transmitted every second or so. I do not believe this is in DCS...

 

The OP was only referring to IFF + EO. I'm pretty sure if you have both your radar and EO on, the target's RWR will be spiked.

It is in DCS, where else would the EO get range information on a locked target from?

It is in DCS, where else would the EO get range information on a locked target from?

Laser.

Laser.

Below 4km, yes. Or are you saying the laser reaches out to 50km?

The radar itself is off in your scenario, until a missile is launched. In which case the radar needs to support the R-27R/ER.

 

 

Concerning the first part..

The radar is separate from the IFF system. The IFF system isnt tracking you, its only broadcasting its interrogation signal in the direction the IFF antenna is slaved to. In this case the IFF antenna is slaved to the EO target being passively tracked. If an accurate reply is detected, the passive track is identified as friendly. If not hostile.

 

Assuming the US RWR could detect the IFF interrogation, which is at a much lower frequency than normal radar signals, then it could inform the US pilot. Though in order to get a bearing on the Russian IFF source, the US RWR would need a number of low band antennas to perform amplitude or phase comparison. IMO this is probably asking too much based on the number and size of the antennas needed. Though a single antenna could be used to just inform, but no direction of the signal would be available. also, assuming any RWR could see an IFF signal, theres no way of knowing if its from a fighter, AWACS, ground station, or ship. In fact, a number of Russian IFF sources would being pinging all the aircraft non-stop. So it would be useless to detect IFF anyway, as it'd be going off every second.

 

As it goes, there is no information indicating that the F-15 RWR can detect the Russian IFF signal. Thus, IFF to your hearts content. Just keep your radar OFF.

This is all fine and I understand, but trouble is, I don't think the IFF system is separately modeled in DCS is it? As in, when you are passively tracking in EO and you press the "Radar ON" keybind, you turn the radar on, no the IFF antenna on... Unless it's actually modeled that way where pressing that keybinding while in EO turns on the IFF antenna (which in case calls into the question, how do you get from EO mode to Radar mode with keybindings

Below 4km, yes. Or are you saying the laser reaches out to 50km?

Can the EO system not spit out a range by itself? I thought that it would be able to detect range with the IR signature or something.