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Air-Air Refueling


muehlema

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I can't even get the plane to refuel...

 

I get on comms and request pre-contact i'm told to fly 8000, and I do... Nothing happens. lol

 

I've never been good at a2a refuel (only tried in A10C, F16 with BMS, and always have sucked lol)

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Practise Practise Practise. Thats it. If you are not good at maintaining speed and altitude try to fly really near the refueler maintaining a relative speed of 0 between each other. Do 3 flights a day and in a week you will be able to do it.

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You don't need the tanker speed.

The first step should be to fly formation with it on its left or right side, trimming your aircraft perfectly to his speed ; feel free to note it down at the same time ;)

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for what it's worth, an IAS of 344-345kts in the F18C is pretty close to the speed that the S-3B flies.

 

That tanker can be a little annoying though, when you have spent a while lining up on the basket and are within a few feet of contact, when the tanker decides that it is going to change course. i even had one "get fed up of waiting" last night and it descended rather rapidly to return to the carrier.

 

Rather ironically, it had probably just run out of fuel. :)

 

 

Except that's way over the max speed that an S3 will be flying when refueling. I'll have to get with Vidar again but IIRC +/- 250 was the max when he was actually flying S3's.

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A few points for AAR (in DCS at least):

 

- I don't agree with tweaking joystick curves on any aircraft except for a null zone for noisy axies and maybe the rudder for helicopters, in my case, only the Gazelle. To each his own, I guess. I know of very good real-life and/or DCS simmers who tweak and I respect that.

 

- Pitch is more instantaneous and hence easier to correct than speed. Get your horizontal, then vertical position under control. Only then, get accustomed to moving by small distance increments: this will involve small throttle inputs in one direction, quickly followed by another input in the opposite direction so not to accelerate or decelerate indefinitely. As you close in, movement should become smaller and smaller around the "perfect" throttle position.

 

- Don't stabilize right at the basket but rather a few feet behind. When stable, creep forward with gentle conviction and drive through the basket and come to a rest a few feet forward of the contact point. Then, keep is there! ;)

 

Practice, observe, learn, rest, practice again.

 

Your throttle control skills will be invaluable for carrier landings, aka traps.

 

Good luck.

 

 

If you want a more realistic stick to control feel, you'll add curves, unless you want to feel like you're flying a Pitts. lol

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To the best of my knowledge, AAR is indeed a lot easier in real life, most of all because of the "butt meter" and better peripheral vision (unless a player has VR, which seems to help a lot in this regard), and also because the tanker is manned by professionals ho work better than the DCS AI.

 

That said, watching RL trainees with hundreds of hours in trainers and simulators and dozens of hours in the real jet struggle with AAR, I think we all have the same basic problems (thinking particularly of "Jetstream" here). :smartass:

 

If your above advice is what works best for you, that's great. From my perspective, AAR is indeed hard in DCS, but just like IRL, it takes practice. A lot of it. And then it clicks, and one wonders what the fuzz was all about.

 

After years of AAR in the A-10C (and some serious struggles in the Harrier), I find the F/A-18C particularly easy to refuel. It really shouldn't be a big deal for DCS pilots to hit the tanker 2, 3 times every mission, and maybe once more after a series of bolters. ;)

 

 

Hundreds of hours is really considered a noob and not all that many hours in the scope of things.

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Ok, I haven't tried AARF with the hornet- I'm still struggling with getting used to stabilized approaches with full flaps. anyways.. MY f15 SME gave me some advice a long time ago. When he was an IP teaching new pilots refueling the f15 he said to use just one throttle once you've gotten dialed in on speed. Not sure if this is an option with the f18 due to it's lack of response but for the f15 with it being pretty twitchy it helps.. might be worth a shot.

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That's funny, I used just the one throttle tonight and wondered whether that was in compliance with SoP.

 

Definitely doing something right anyway, cos it's the first time I've ever connected at the first attempt and taken a full tank of gas in one go. Felt so happy I didn't even shoot the tanker down afterwards.

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MY f15 SME gave me some advice a long time ago. When he was an IP teaching new pilots refueling the f15 he said to use just one throttle once you've gotten dialed in on speed. Not sure if this is an option with the f18 due to it's lack of response but for the f15 with it being pretty twitchy it helps.. might be worth a shot.

 

In that documentary Jetstream the IPs mention "walking the throttle" a few times so it sounds like it's done. Don't think it's really necessary with the F-18 we have - I was hopeless at AAR in the A-10 but about an hour practice in the F-18 was enough to be able to do full top ups in one go so it must be pretty easy.

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I've only tried gassing up from S3 in "Instant action" mission. So far no issues with alignment and/or airspeed. Once I'm in observation, stabilized or pre-connect I don't even pay attention to HUD. My eyes are on the tanker and by jockeying the throttles (I guess you can call it "walking") I'm usually able set up a stable closure at or below 5 knots. AI tanker starts to orbit (just like real ones do) - no problem there. But... as soon as I plug in pushing the basket in a little, the probe goes through the basket... perhaps it's me not easing up on power on time or...

btw, I could swear that this AI S3 puke tapped on the rudders couple of times just to spice it up! :/

I know, I know - more practice.

 

Edit: Oh, forgot to mention I'm using Oculus rig. It's a bit fuzzy but the 3d effect makes a huge difference for me. I just wish I could scrounge pair of "gloves" somewhere so I can punch buttons quickly.


Edited by Gripes323
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I've only connected once with the f18 in the instant action mission for a few seconds. Biggest problem for me is lining up on the left. The f18 keeps pitch pretty decent with the fcs so I find if I try to trim it then ends up getting unstable keeping altitude.

 

I had a much smoother approach last night on the tnn server since the tanker was traveling slower and it also was more stable. I never ended up connecting because I couldn't figure out what to reference and keep the right altitude. On the instant action mission I would wobble left and right even keeping the stick pretty much center. In multiplayer I maintained no wobbling but had issues with altitude creeping up to the basket.

 

I found the A10c much easier to refuel and I've done that one day and night.

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Practice practice practice.....from all my years of AAR it made it easy peasy in the Hornet

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It's funny how some people find some airframes easy and some really hard. For me I think the Harrier is the easiest of all the aircraft to Air refuel... maybe it's because the basket is out of sight so you don't end up focusing on it by mistake.

 

 

The mirage I absolutely HATE trying to refuel in due to the lack of nose down pitch... it drove me mad.

 

 

The F18 I find to be of average difficulty... it's harder to stay connected due to the engine lag, but connecting isn't too bad.

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That's interesting , I find A-10c hardest aircraft for AAR. Movable boom in front of my eyes prevents my brain to keep steady formation with tanker. It's really painful and requires full focus.

Contrary, I fly F-18C AAR with one finger, and can even click around cockpit with mouse.

 

Interesting how different people have different preferences for such exact thing. :)

I think I find the A10c easier because I only focus on the boom when it first comes out then I just find it easier to center myself right behind the tanker whereas with the F18 I have trouble staying centered on the left. On the A10 once I'm right smack center behind the tanker it's pretty slow so it makes riding up to it easier. I put a curve of 20 on my warthog and didn't have much trouble in the A10. I just center myself right behind and then kreep up focusing my eyes on the horizon and monitoring chopping the throttles. The boom operator ends up flying the boom right in.

 

I think on the f18 I just have issues with speed and staying to the left center as opposed to right behind the tanker and for me at least it's harder to point my probe into the basket without something to focus on obviously besides the probe.

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Tanking isn't nearly as hard as I first imagine, had some quick disco but reconnected just as fast. However, had a surprise with the tanker last flight, he decided he wanted to take his ball and go home.

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I find that the easiest way to air refuel is to line up somewhat with the drogue and then engage the autopilot. It will keep your plane going straight and level, but still allow you to make course correction inputs with your stick.

In AP mode these corrections are greatly numbed, so you stand a much lesser chance of overcompensating your inputs. I managed to connect within a minute or 2 on my first attempt doing it like this.

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Is somebody else having problem with the KC-135B? I thought it had been fixed with the last update.

No problem AAR with KC-130 and S-3B.


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Is somebody else having problem with the KC-135B? I thought it had been fixed with the last update.

No problem AAR with KC-130 and S-3B.

 

 

 

Tested KC-135B in DCS 2.5.2.18307 in Harrier and Hornet. Can connect but only for one second. Still bugged.

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G'day folks, anyone had any luck with refueling at night? For the life of me, trying to find a probe light. According to NATOPS manual, it's controlled in master capacity by moving the Exterior Light Master Switch to FWD, however I'm still not seeing a probe light. What am I missing?

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I'm really not getting you...

I find AAR incredibly fulfilling when the foundations for realism is there. I don't fly sims to tweak settings in a mission editor just like I don't fly planes to load luggage.

 

Are you saying you don't like using the ME & just expect other people to provide you with well set up missions ?

 

What is popular is rarely true, what is true is rarely popular.

 

Are you saying "never stare into the sun" is a popular adage, so it isn't true ?, or 'you catch more flies with honey than vinegar' is true, so people mustn't like it as an idea ?

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G'day folks, anyone had any luck with refueling at night?

 

Nope. After a long mission, I tried for 10+ minutes to even spot the drogue of an S-3 tanker, while my squadmates frantically checked the NATOPS and key assignments, but nothing helped, probe and drogue were just completely, entirely pitch black, regardless of master light switch and any other light switch I could find in the pit.

 

"Luckily", one of my squad mates had already crashed and guided me to the nearest airport via F10 map, where I landed with 500 lbs of fuel left. ;)

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Yeah just takes practice. It was easy for me after practicing so much with the Mirage. The key is to fly in formation along side the tanker to figure out what speed its flying. Once thats determined, go to pre-contact position and ease up behind the basket. Typically 2 knots faster than the tanker. When you're about to connect, reduce speed to the tanker's speed. Sometimes I even engage the ATC(Auto Throttle Control) once im stable enough, but this is not recommended.

Thanks Hi-Jack:thumbup:


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If you establish a speed of 325 knots and then enable ATC and observe the throttle movement you see what you need to perform to keep the speed equal to the tanker speed. This can be practiced without the tanker. And I don't think ATC is part of the refueling checklist so don't use it. A2A refueling will be a breese after some practice but you have to put in some hours.

 

EDIT: You should open the nozzle when practicing also as it adds drag.

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