Landing weight?

I was watching these (very good) videos by "Lex" - a retired IRL Hornet driver, on CASE I recovery. In the first episode he mentions that landing weight should never exceed 33,000lbs, and also adds that it doesn't take much in terms of ordnance, pods and external fuel, to become heavy for landing. He also went on to explain how to dump fuel in order to reach that limit.

So, I put together a training mission for myself. Mission is ship identification/patrol at night in IMC (low cloud cover, rain and very strong winds). Loadout is just self defence (2xAIM-120C + 2xAIM-9X) and two external tanks.

As I completed the mission part and started the inbound to Mother I checked the weight, which was at 42,000lbs so I put myself in orbit to relax a bit and dump fuel before heading back to the boat. As it turned out I had about 2000lbs left which is definitely "low state", at the level where it's time to ask for priority!

I can only imagine coming back from a long interdiction with remaining ordnance under my wings!

So, my question is: How do you deal with this in RL? Do you dump the extra tanks and/or remaining ordnance, at sea (sounds very costly)? Do you accept a heavy bird or do you accept the low state (very risky)? Or is weight not correctly modeled?

You don't jettison anything, unless there's an emergency. The weight calculation on the Checklist page is currently bugged (known bug), especially if you have AIM-120 missiles on board.

The weight is calculated correctly in the Mission Editor. I suggest that you go in the Mission Editor before the mission, equip the stores you want and then adjust the fuel level until you get to 33,000-34,000 lbs. Then, you can note that down and use the fuel level as a measure of weight, for a quick, rough calculation. It is by no means accurate, but it'll put you in the ballpark. It's just a way of dealing with the bugged weight calculation.

Otherwise, you can keep a page with ordnance weights, add them up and then add the fuel in lbs and the empty aircraft weight in lbs and you'll get your total.

34000 pounds is max trap. 33000 pounds is the limit during certain nonstandard conditions (half flaps, 4.0 degree glideslope, MOVLAS, etc).

One can find YT F18 trapping mother with 3 tanks underneath, these will be empty but will have massive drag.

I exercise trap with (some) loadout all the time (this started with not being bothered).

As RL command in a lot of cases appears to tell pilots 'we dont care how, just do it'.

Just trap.

Also worth remembering the bug in the checklist weight readout. The weight you see in the checklist page isnt accurate in DCS.

I was watching these (very good) videos by "Lex" - a retired IRL Hornet driver, on CASE I recovery. In the first episode he mentions that landing weight should never exceed 33,000lbs, and also adds that it doesn't take much in terms of ordnance, pods and external fuel, to become heavy for landing. He also went on to explain how to dump fuel in order to reach that limit.

 

So, I put together a training mission for myself. Mission is ship identification/patrol at night in IMC (low cloud cover, rain and very strong winds). Loadout is just self defence (2xAIM-120C + 2xAIM-9X) and two external tanks.

 

As I completed the mission part and started the inbound to Mother I checked the weight, which was at 42,000lbs so I put myself in orbit to relax a bit and dump fuel before heading back to the boat. As it turned out I had about 2000lbs left which is definitely "low state", at the level where it's time to ask for priority!

 

I can only imagine coming back from a long interdiction with remaining ordnance under my wings!

 

So, my question is: How do you deal with this in RL? Do you dump the extra tanks and/or remaining ordnance, at sea (sounds very costly)? Do you accept a heavy bird or do you accept the low state (very risky)? Or is weight not correctly modeled?

As stated earlier, max trap is really 34000 pounds. Normally with an unexpended loadout (typical CAS loadout) you’ll probably have somewhere around 4000 pounds of fuel (or a little more) at max trap.

One can find YT F18 trapping mother with 3 tanks underneath, these will be empty but will have massive drag.

I exercise trap with (some) loadout all the time (this started with not being bothered).

As RL command in a lot of cases appears to tell pilots 'we dont care how, just do it'.

Just trap.

The drag doesn’t matter at all for the actual trap. The weight does. IRL the pilots DO care about max trap weight and make sure to not land overweight.

One can find YT F18 trapping mother with 3 tanks underneath, these will be empty but will have massive drag.

I exercise trap with (some) loadout all the time (this started with not being bothered).

As RL command in a lot of cases appears to tell pilots 'we dont care how, just do it'.

Just trap.

It gets crazy over 43000lbs (as in fly 165kts, and of course that is not allowed because the wire might snap), but I've done comfortable DCS traps below that.

Or. I just got the F14 Tomcat, trap with the F14 is about 300% EASIER.

(I don't complain, DCS should order F14 developers to make it harder/more realistic)

I don't understand. You'd like more realism out of the tomcat but won't mind trapping at 43k lbs in the hornet - something that's never been done.

trap with the F14 is about 300% EASIER.

Surprised to hear this. I don't have the Tomcat but assumed it would be harder to trap because of no fly by wire.

Surprised to hear this. I don't have the Tomcat but assumed it would be harder to trap because of no fly by wire.

It's just not finished yet as the aircraft is in early access. Heatblur is working on it and planning on adding hit skip bolters as well as hook damage. On speed AoA will be required to successfully trap in the F-14 once that's done. Until then, it's more forgiving to land the '14 on the deck than it is the '18.

Surprised to hear this. I don't have the Tomcat but assumed it would be harder to trap because of no fly by wire.

The Tomcat's DLC makes it a lot easier to make adjustments without screwing up your AOA.

I don't understand. You'd like more realism out of the tomcat but won't mind trapping at 43k lbs in the hornet - something that's never been done.

If it wasn't for guys like me, you would still be in the stone age ... isn't it

Also worth remembering the bug in the checklist weight readout. The weight you see in the checklist page isnt accurate in DCS.

Just out of curiosity, what is the actual bug? (I.e. Does it show too much weight, too little weight, etc...)

Just out of curiosity, what is the actual bug? (I.e. Does it show too much weight, too little weight, etc...)

I think it's just off. If you have AMRAAMs, it always shows too much, because I think it doesn't subtract dropped munitions. Once all AMRAAMs are gone, it subtracts everything that's been dropped thus far. So it can show 37,000lbs, you fire that last AMRAAM and it displays 32,000lbs immediately.

Ahh okay, thanks:thumbup:

The low "MAX TRAP" weight is the main reason for development on the FA18E! The "C" were dumping $$$$$$ of stores returning from a mission. :)

OP question

So, my question is: How do you deal with this in RL?

You don't take stuff that you expect to bring back. RL aircraft, naval aviation specifically, does not go fully loaded all times. They carry what they realistically can use in a mission and surely will take a Sidewinder and maybe an AMRAAM if there is a need for it.

Reading various articles or listening to pilot interviews (I recommend Fighter Pilot Podcast) they often talk about a standard loadout for the mission per given deployment.

For example, they won't take any AAMs if there is no threat or if there is CAP present. For CAS missions they will often carry just two JDAMs and a Maverick perhaps.

RL loadout is nothing like DCS loadout because there is also a cost factor and availability amongst others.

You don't take stuff that you expect to bring back. RL aircraft, naval aviation specifically, does not go fully loaded all times. They carry what they realistically can use in a mission and surely will take a Sidewinder and maybe an AMRAAM if there is a need for it.

 

Reading various articles or listening to pilot interviews (I recommend Fighter Pilot Podcast) they often talk about a standard loadout for the mission per given deployment.

 

For example, they won't take any AAMs if there is no threat or if there is CAP present. For CAS missions they will often carry just two JDAMs and a Maverick perhaps.

RL loadout is nothing like DCS loadout because there is also a cost factor and availability amongst others.

Given the short legs of the Legacy Hornet, taking only what you need helps with fuel burn as well. Though I remember Jello saying that on some missions they'd go to the tanker 4 times!

Surprised to hear this. I don't have the Tomcat but assumed it would be harder to trap because of no fly by wire.

F-14 has an Arkadish trap model & traps every time, regardless of your AoA: https://forums.eagle.ru/showthread.php?t=260985

Just out of curiosity, what is the actual bug? (I.e. Does it show too much weight, too little weight, etc...)

F-18 checklist page shows wrong weight. AoA speed & weight has been wrong for 6 months & counting..: https://forums.eagle.ru/showthread.php?t=247311&highlight=weight

https://forums.eagle.ru/showthread.php?t=253738

I had never flown in DCS with the unlimited fuel setting turned on. I had gotten to where I was successfully completing about 7 or 8 out of 10 Case 1 Landing Attempts without getting waved off or bolter. A few days I ago, I wanted to practice my case 1 landings in the F/A-18C and I got the bright idea that I could get a lot more attempts if I didn’t have to stop to be refueled, so I turned on the setting for unlimited fuel. 
 

After turning on unlimited fuel, I started getting waved off by the AI LSO every single landing attempt, even when I was on center line, On-Speed, with a centered ball. No matter what I did, I was getting waved off. For the life of me I couldn’t figure out what I was doing wrong. Part of my normal carrier landing procedures/checklist is to check my total weight on the checklist page and if I’m over 33,000 pounds, I turn on the dump fuel switch and as long as I have bingo fuel set to 6,000 pounds, the dump fuel switch will automatically turn off when my fuel state reaches 6,000. With 6,000 pounds of fuel and no munitions except for bullets and AIM 9’s on the F/A-18C wing tips, the F/A-18C is below 33,000 pounds total weight. 

What I didn’t realize is that when you have the unlimited fuel setting turned on, whenever you flip the dump fuel switch to the On position, it doesn’t stay in the on position and immediately switches to the OFF position, so when I thought I was dumping fuel, I wasn’t. I finally realized that with unlimited fuel turned on, and no munitions except for bullets and AIM 9’s on the F/A-18C wing tips, the aircraft weights around 34,700 pounds. 

As soon as I realized this and turned off the unlimited fuel setting and I was able to dump fuel to 33,000 pounds or less, I was no longer getting waved off every time and started sticking about 7 or 8 out of 10 case 1 landing attempts again. I don’t know if the AI LSO in DCS can tell if an aircraft is overweight and automatically waves off overweight aircraft or if it’s just a bug with the unlimited fuel setting that causes an aircraft to get waved off every time, but I can tell you that with unlimited fuel turned on, I was getting waved off 10 out of 10 Case 1 landing attempts and when I turned off unlimited fuel, I immediately returned to my typical case 1 landing success rate of about 7 or 8 out of 10 successful landings and only 2 or 3 out of 10 attempts ending with wave offs. 

I had never flown in DCS with the unlimited fuel setting turned on. I had gotten to where I was successfully completing about 7 or 8 out of 10 Case 1 Landing Attempts without getting waved off or bolter. A few days I ago, I wanted to practice my case 1 landings in the F/A-18C and I got the bright idea that I could get a lot more attempts if I didn’t have to stop to be refueled, so I turned on the setting for unlimited fuel. 
 
After turning on unlimited fuel, I started getting waved off by the AI LSO every single landing attempt, even when I was on center line, On-Speed, with a centered ball. No matter what I did, I was getting waved off. For the life of me I couldn’t figure out what I was doing wrong. Part of my normal carrier landing procedures/checklist is to check my total weight on the checklist page and if I’m over 33,000 pounds, I turn on the dump fuel switch and as long as I have bingo fuel set to 6,000 pounds, the dump fuel switch will automatically turn off when my fuel state reaches 6,000. With 6,000 pounds of fuel and no munitions except for bullets and AIM 9’s on the F/A-18C wing tips, the F/A-18C is below 33,000 pounds total weight. 
What I didn’t realize is that when you have the unlimited fuel setting turned on, whenever you flip the dump fuel switch to the On position, it doesn’t stay in the on position and immediately switches to the OFF position, so when I thought I was dumping fuel, I wasn’t. I finally realized that with unlimited fuel turned on, and no munitions except for bullets and AIM 9’s on the F/A-18C wing tips, the aircraft weights around 34,700 pounds. 
As soon as I realized this and turned off the unlimited fuel setting and I was able to dump fuel to 33,000 pounds or less, I was no longer getting waved off every time and started sticking about 7 or 8 out of 10 case 1 landing attempts again. I don’t know if the AI LSO in DCS can tell if an aircraft is overweight and automatically waves off overweight aircraft or if it’s just a bug with the unlimited fuel setting that causes an aircraft to get waved off every time, but I can tell you that with unlimited fuel turned on, I was getting waved off 10 out of 10 Case 1 landing attempts and when I turned off unlimited fuel, I immediately returned to my typical case 1 landing success rate of about 7 or 8 out of 10 successful landings and only 2 or 3 out of 10 attempts ending with wave offs.