Challenge: Climb 20 km in 7 minutes

So first you say that all are just humans, and then you give argument for human, that has radically kept changing the MiG-21Bis flight characteristics and each time telling "It is now correct"?

 

Sorry, that is illogical.

And yes, I do know that.

 

IMO the illogical thing is to keep claiming the DCS MiG-21 should have more than twice the engine power over and over again, even if the numbers just won't add up, and the plane meets all the performace data, like maximum speed, acceleration and max. altitude.

 

 

https://forums.eagle.ru/showpost.php?p=3457419&postcount=2

 

Here is the link to the RL MiG-21bis manual, feel free to dig up data that supports that insane climb performance you claim to be realistic, and file a bug report to the devs.

 

Good luck :)

From starters, it's simply impossible to climb to 10 km with 60 degree angle.

 

Tried it many times today.

Well, Im learning a lot in this post, but the fact is, to climb to 10 km with 60 degree is impossible.

I allready knew it whem I read the challenge for the first time. But I tried it as many of you. Mig21 cant keep the speed and the high AOA like that.

He clearly says 60 degree through whole first leg

Where?

 

All the piping from other fuel tanks to feeder tank are too thin to no:3 to keep it full, but the no:3 pipe to engine is big enough keep feeding maximum fuel flow to keep it running.

Only under certain high fuel flow conditions. By bis manual it is >1000 km/h at "low and medium altitudes" afterburner(s) allowed if fuel >800L. For slower speeds or higher altitudes fuel rate is less and fuel can be supplied fast enough that starvation won't happen. While it's true feed from wings being not sufficient under high fuel flow isn't modeled (or at least not modeled to the degree that I can find a condition where it's insufficient) but the external fuel tank limitation is (I think, I'd have to check again).

I thought I got a 6:02 but I kinda doubt it now. What I'm not optimizing is the first acceleration supersonic. I've tried at 7km up to all sorts of speeds and I can't do much less than 7:50 or so. I modified the trigger to start counting time when speed >1m/s. If I can figure it out I'd like to just have the seconds since flag1 true spit out when the M2/20km conditions are both met.

Edited July 3, 2020 by Frederf

Where?

 

He says that in the finnish video which is linked at #20 message.

 

However I really wonder how was it possible. Maybe the F-13 model which he refers is better with climbing and there are some differences in DCS flight model.

Time index? I watched the whole thing and I don't see any mention. I might have missed it but I looked quite carefully. With someone's kind help I wrote some better triggers that gives a timer that counts between when you start moving to M2/20km.

He says that in the finnish video which is linked at #20 message.

 

However I really wonder how was it possible. Maybe the F-13 model which he refers is better with climbing and there are some differences in DCS flight model.

 

I think maybe he is just boasting a bit. You see the setup, he seems to be talking to a group of normal average civilians, that is perfectly normal in my view.

 

Chances are if he was interviewed as an SME, then we would get more detailed info on the matter, which of course might be little different than our sim, because different version and inaccuracies in the sim, but most certainly not something extreme like 60 degrees all the way and not loosing speed...

 

Thats why it is important to crosscheck info, and think, even if it comes from a really respectable source, like that man.

I think maybe he is just boasting a bit. You see the setup, he seems to be talking to a group of normal average civilians, that is perfectly normal in my view.

 

Chances are if he was interviewed as an SME, then we would get more detailed info on the matter, which of course might be little different than our sim, because different version and inaccuracies in the sim, but most certainly not something extreme like 60 degrees all the way and not loosing speed...

 

Thats why it is important to crosscheck info, and think, even if it comes from a really respectable source, like that man.

 

 

 

I agree. This kind of behavior is "normal" and pilots (humans) boost a bit their stories in hangar talk.

But crosscheck info and you realise tha is not like that.

Edited July 4, 2020 by fred_br

He says that in the finnish video which is linked at #20 message.

 

However I really wonder how was it possible. Maybe the F-13 model which he refers is better with climbing and there are some differences in DCS flight model.

 

The test pilots say that it is same by the performance, only the flight characteristics are different where F model flies like a dart, but Bis like a beer bottle.

There is a difference between understanding what a pilot means when they say something, and blindly repeating something similar to what was said without understanding what the pilot meant. I'd like to refer back to another thread where it was claimed that because the early MiG-21s didn't have an AoA indicator (an instrument that only became commonplace in the second and even third generation jets), it could not have any particularly dangerous stall behaviour. I won't say who made the claim, I think they know who they are, and I'm surprised they learnt nothing from it.

 

Pilots are not a hivemind. Each pilot feels the aircraft differently and will use different words to describe it. Some remember the systems as well as any of the maintainers, some remember the feel but are liable to forget some of the finer details of the systems. I know of at least one pilot who was perplexed by something they likely would have had some kind of instruction on, at least in manuals, because they didn't use the relevant equipment in their particular variant and probably skimmed or altogether skipped out on that part of the manual, even though it was technically a system their aircraft supported.

 

Sometimes pilots don't know everything about the plane they fly, or they forget little details, or they muddle up one thing with another, or maybe they even heard an old wives' tale about some subsystem only really relevant to the ground crew and retain it as trivia, even if it's not strictly true. Everyone does it. I never heard so many myths about small arms in my life as I did while in a job centred around them.

 

The MiG cannot hold its speed in a consistent 60 deg. climb, at any power setting. You lose like 20-30% of your max thrust when the emergency burner kicks off at 4,000m ASL (which puts you back below 1:1 TWR), and the remainder is tapering off with altitude. You will either need to shallow out your climb to maintain speed, or realise you're essentially in a ballistic climb that's going to put you well below where you could get with a proper climb profile (and too slow to sustain the altitude when you get there).

Edited July 5, 2020 by rossmum