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M61 20MM HE Damage


Shadow KT

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First of all, I wanna say that the dispersion improvements are greatly welcomed and it is definitely better, but I believe the bigger problem with the cannon on Hornet has been the damage of its munition. I know they are only HE, which is a shame, compared to the available options on other aircraft, but.... surely the M61 munition is not weaker than the one of a Huey's Minigun ?

 

The Hornet cannot (well, one out of 10 runs I was able to) do damage to, for example, an SA-6 LN, SA-11 LN or a BTR-80, but at the same time those same unarmored vehicles can be destroyed with 7.62 from the mini guns, which is realistic as they are not armored with exception to the BTR, which can withstand that frontally, but cannot to the sides, unless at extreme ranges.

 

Below I have attached a track showing off multiple gun runs, with a dive angle between 30 and 40 degrees with no success and then hoping in a huey and destroying the targets. I later added a BTR as well to try it, didn't save the track tho.

Hornet 20MM Damage.trk

'Shadow'

 

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Yeah the Hornet cannon damage is seriously wonky. I can kill some units (Patriot SAM bits) quite easy but you can put a Roland SAM EWR out there and it is literally impossible to strafe with the 18. A SAM RADAR....

 

It isn't even consistent between SAM types as the SA-10 bits can be strafed but require a lot more hits than the Patriot bits.

 

So yeah never mind lightly armored vehicles. You can See some completely un-armored vehicles that you cannot strafe with the 18.

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In DCS damage currently depends on penetration.

 

If you do not penetrate the armour you will do no damage.

 

Until we have a better damage model for units it will remain this way, it is planned but I do not have any time frame.

 

My advice is where possible use AP rounds.

 

Thanks

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In DCS damage currently depends on penetration.

 

If you do not penetrate the armour you will do no damage.

 

Until we have a better damage model for units it will remain this way, it is planned but I do not have any time frame.

 

 

Since when is a Roland SAM EWR considered to be a armored vehicle? Try to strafe that with an 18. Mission impossible.

 

 

My advice is where possible use AP rounds.

 

 

As soon as I can option that in to the 18 load out I'd love to...

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Okey, I understand the penetration thing, but can't the unit's armor be adjusted, so penetration can happen ?

 

It doesn't make sense if the 20MM HE can destroy aircraft, but it can't destroy unarmored vehicles, "tin boxes".

 

Surely, this is more of a units armor adjustment thing....

 

7.62 doesn't have more pen than 20mm

 

At the same time, the Huey can destroy these SAM units, but it cannot destroy a Chaparrel


Edited by Shadow KT

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As mentioned it depends on penetration values and amour thickness.

 

I will take a look another look, armour thickness can be lower on the top or from the rear of the vehicle for example. It it is possible to damage them with HE but you have to get pretty close, I will raise the issue with the team.

 

Thanks

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Short clip from testing

 

 

apologies for sound, my recording setup needs checking


Edited by BIGNEWY

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Okay, according to BigNewy's comment in that YouTube video, the penetration even appears to rely on distance from target (or bullet-speed)

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Okay, according to BigNewy's comment in that YouTube video, the penetration even appears to rely on distance from target (or bullet-speed)

 

Of course bullet velocity matters, that is the whole point ( pun intended ) for a bullet or projectile.

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Personally I think penetration of the 7.62x51 NATO the M134 shoots is a little over modeled in this sim at the moment. I can fly around in the Huey all day long and plink tanks with them T-55s, BTR60s and other artillary pieces you find on the quick mission page. There really isnt great armor penetration rounds for that caliber except for black tips, and half the ammo in the minigun is tracer rounds. Yet it has better penetration than the M61 20mm ammo...

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Disregarding known ammo or armor bugs/limitations , it does not surprise me in the least that 7.62x51 penetrates better than 20mm He . One is a solid core ball ammo , the other a hollow projectile filled with explosive compound .

My own direct experience with 7.62x51 ball , 7.62x39 ball (which has a small steel penetrator core) and 5.56 ball showed excellent results penetrating mild steel plate .

A 20mm HE might in some conditions deform such a plate somewhat (1/4" if i recall correctly) but most of the blast would be deflected by it , and it's hollow construction would disallow much in the way of penetration .

A 20mm round also has a very small explosive charge , nowhere comparable to a 40mm grenade , which also is only useful for unarmored vehicles and personnel .

 

 

We need 20mm AP !


Edited by Svsmokey

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Disregarding known ammo or armor bugs/limitations , it does not surprise me in the least that 7.62x51 penetrates better than 20mm He . One is a solid core ball ammo , the other a hollow projectile filled with explosive compound .

My own direct experience with 7.62x51 ball , 7.62x39 ball (which has a small steel penetrator core) and 5.56 ball showed excellent results penetrating mild steel plate .

A 20mm HE might in some conditions deform such a plate somewhat (1/4" if i recall correctly) but most of the blast would be deflected by it , and it's hollow construction would disallow much in the way of penetration .

A 20mm round also has a very small explosive charge , nowhere comparable to a 40mm grenade , which also is only useful for unarmored vehicles and personnel .

 

 

We need 20mm AP !

 

That 7.62 ammo isnt penetrating steel plating above AR500, and 20mm has more mass than any 7.62 ammo...even green tip or black tips. Winchester .308 isnt much better or worse either - at best I can penetrate 1/4" thick steel plating with FMJ; I havent tried with black tip ammo as of yet though...black tips are expensive.

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Those more qualified than i might be able to interpret this chart .

 

http://www.steelbeasts.com/sbwiki/index.php/Ammunition_Data

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Short clip from testing

 

 

apologies for sound, my recording setup needs checking

 

On the run which you killed the LN, you actually shot it in its front :)

 

I did say in my original post, that occasionally a kill is possible, but as you saw... you have to get danger close. In my track I did multiple runs from different sides.

 

There are definitely some of these older model vehicles, which require some armor value updating

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Personally I think penetration of the 7.62x51 NATO the M134 shoots is a little over modeled in this sim at the moment. I can fly around in the Huey all day long and plink tanks with them T-55s, BTR60s and other artillary pieces you find on the quick mission page. There really isnt great armor penetration rounds for that caliber except for black tips, and half the ammo in the minigun is tracer rounds. Yet it has better penetration than the M61 20mm ammo...

 

 

Don't know when you last have played the huey, but the guns are no where as close as what they used to be (the God Mini-Guns)

 

You cannot pen a T-55, unless a lucky steep angle shot on its engine deck and even so it will do like less than 1 % of damage (I wasn't able to do damage, from any side)

 

The only side of the BTR which can protect from 7.62 is the front and it does that in DCS as well, unless a lucky weak spot hit


Edited by Shadow KT

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Don't know when you last have played the huey, but the guns are no where as close as what they used to be (the God Mini-Guns)

 

You cannot pen a T-55, unless a lucky steep angle shot on its engine deck and even so it will do like less than 1 % of damage (I wasn't able to do damage, from any side)

 

The only side of the BTR which can protect from 7.62 is the front and it does that in DCS as well, unless a lucky weak spot hit

 

Its been a few weeks, but I can still kill tanks and BTRs with the miniguns. Ill try to make a video later. Will admit that it was a lot harder to do so, but I still could.


Edited by Hammer1-1

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Of course bullet velocity matters, that is the whole point ( pun intended ) for a bullet or projectile.

Of course that matters, it's just that DCS is based on a game-engine that's well over 10 years old afaik, and I had no idea ED already implemented aircraft-vs-groundunit-bulletspeed-damage class/function by now ^^ Awesome that we got this in now! And sorry for misunderstanding.

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Isnt nearly as powerful as it once was obviously, but still a bit overpowered if you ask me. Those armored vehicles should have had minimal damage....yet they still burn.

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Isnt nearly as powerful as it once was obviously, but still a bit overpowered if you ask me. Those armored vehicles should have had minimal damage....yet they still burn.

 

Except to envy how smooth your DCS runs and how accurate you are with VR, I can't say that video showed anything to back up your earlier comments. The only armored vehicle you killed was the BRDM and a bunch of trucks. Calling the BRDM armored by today's standards is also a bit of a stretch as a vehicle which is only armored to 7.62 at the front, it has 10mm steal armor for the front and turret. You were shooting it trough the roof. I was actually surprised that the BMP-1 withstood, knowing how lightly armored it is (except the front).

 

Go in front of the BRDM and shoot in the front from level ground, where it is armor is most effect and you will see, that is is actually protected against 7.62

 

Unless I missed something or the whole point, which is possible after skipping a bunch trough a 20 minute video :lol:


Edited by Shadow KT

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I did that same mission at night when they introduced 2.5.6 new lighting effects and I was able to kill the artillery pieces plus the BMP with the miniguns, was very surprised I wasnt able to this time around, so thinking they changed something else with one of the follow on patches. I didnt know those BRDMs were that thin skinned, but according to wikipedia the hull thickness is 7mm thick with a minimum thickness of 5mm on top. Again Ive never shot any black tips from my AR10, but knowing how strong 316 half hard steel is myself, thats still good armor protection against 7.62. Maybe Ill get some black tips and try just that this week.

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