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Brunner Force Feedback Joystick Base


Mozart

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If someone needs another name for a prospective buyer list to send to Brunner (or something along those lines), I myself and a friend would both purchase in a heartbeat if we saw this base with DCS compatibility

 

Cheers,

Harry

 

Yeah, the price for this is high but if it supported DCS properly (trim and shake for at least the warbirds and non-FBW jets) then I'd be saving up for it as well.

 

Imagine if those FFB rudder pedals were working with it - we might finally be able to feel the burble through the rudders at high AoA in certain jets (like the Hornet for example)

Do you use VR? Do you feel sad when you are just a dismbodied set of eyes floating in the cockpit? Check out my list of paid aircraft modules that support the visible virtual pilot body:

 

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As far as I can tell, there's no limit to how many FFB devices you can have, but DCS won't send any FFB commands to any axes aside from the primary 2, and other sims won't even let you bind a FFB stick to anything but the primary 2. Effectively, this means that support is limited to only FFB on the stick.

 

That said, it should be possible to switch force profiles based on the aircraft being flown. Additional effects such as shakes can be implemented by reading the export data from DCS to get figures such as AoA and TAS, though it should be noted that most multiplayer servers disable export data because it also allows you to read data such as unit positions.

 

I'm really looking forward to picking up the Brunner base. I believe that by combining the FFB commands with the export data, I can really make the FFB sing.

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[...] I'm really looking forward to picking up the Brunner base. I believe that by combining the FFB commands with the export data, I can really make the FFB sing.

 

I am following your progress with high interest, @Ranma13!

Do you use VR? Do you feel sad when you are just a dismbodied set of eyes floating in the cockpit? Check out my list of paid aircraft modules that support the visible virtual pilot body:

 

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Hi there,

 

 

I have been looking at this base with some interest as well. Instant buy if they support DCS FFB.

 

 

If they wont as of now i could do with the hardware trim for helos and such but can any of the owners of this device tell me if it is possible to limit certain axis?

 

 

I fly with a 12 cm extension and I would love to see that I can limit pitch down for ergonomic reasons. Also quite some planes have less travel in the pitch down region. The total deflection of the brunner base is quite larger than the warthog and virpil base so it would be cool to set up profiles with different ranges. WWII crates could have huge deflection but helos and or fighter planes usually have less deflection.

 

 

Id love to hear if this is possible with the brunner software. thanks in advance.

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Brunner responds very Swiftly to mails. Q2 for dcs is probably a bit too optimistic the rep told me. He Also answered my question about Axis limits via software:

 

Hi Kingpinda

 

 

DCS Support is planned. But Q2 is probably a bit optimistic. I would say Q3 or even Q4.

Careful! Except forces changing with airspeed, the initial release won't have much more —features.

We'll try to add features, but I can't promise anything at this point.

If you want the joystick mainly for DCS, my tip is to wait and see how the situation develops.

 

 

b) Yes, Software limits can be set. But they are limited by motor strength,

so the limit can only be felt moderately and can easily be overpowered.

The CLS-P joystick has distinctly more juice, but is in a whole other price range.

 

 

Freundliche Grüsse /kind regards

 

Diego Bürgin

Informatiker

 

Brunner Elektronik AG

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Ugh, mixed messages from internal sources within the same company. A company without clear direction, focus and corporate messaging is troubling. I was surprised by the answer I received to my email as I had also gotten the “maybe someday, not a priority” from them previously. I am always amazed by the talent and capabilities of the DCS community here on the forums to do what the hardware “big guys” refuse to do. I am more than hopeful that Ranma13 can develop a driver that is universal for DCS modules.

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I wouldn't say that, it sounds like there's just different people responding to e-mails who have been told different things, or priorities have shifted since the last response. It's rather discouraging though that for their initial implementation they only plan to change the force as airspeed increases; centering is really the must-have feature.

 

I took a quick look at the spec sheet for the CLS-P joystick and they weren't exaggerating about it being in a different price range. Its max force is 50 Nm with a 400W peak, compared to the CLS-E at 4 Nm with a 300W peak. It's also not available in their shop, so it's mostly likely one of those "if you have to ask, you can't afford it" kind of thing. The MS FFB2 is reportedly only 0.4 Nm.

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So I googled my question and here is an answer found online.

 

“So 4nm is 4 apples at a radius of 1m, or say about 13 apples at about 1 foot. So hang a bag of 13 apples on the end of a 12" ruler and that will give you some

idea.”

 

Nm is a measure few would seem to have any exposure to, much like mm/ml to those raised using the imperial system.

 

It would seem the force perceived would be less the longer the extension used between grip and base.

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  • 3 weeks later...
So what’s 4Nm feel like / mean in non scientific terminology.

If you want to pull on the stick like you're bonkers (maybe even with both hands, like you see in some action movies), then you won't be happy.

But if you just want to fly a helicopter or plane with very high precision, then it is plenty.

 

 

Since I'm mainly flying helicopters, I've actually set it to even lower forces.

Pretty much like people exchange the (often very strong) springs in their joysticks to softer ones to get lower forces and increased precision.

 

 

And with the Brunner you get really high input precision.

In contrast to my previous joysticks I don't even need force trim to properly fly the helicopter, it's more like a nice thing to have that you can actually use force trim to make it more comfortable.

With my previous Thrustmaster sticks (ok, these weren't exactly the best, but still …) trimming was not optional, since otherwise I had huge problems, e.g. when trying to land (with the stick being off-center).

 

 

Personally I also don't feel the need for an extension, it's more like moving the stick with your fingers, like many people actually don't move their mouse with the whole hand and arm, but just move the fingers around to get the movement (I do so as well).

And obviously finger movement can be very precise. ;)

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A small update, I've made some progress on the FFB app and made it look nicer:

 

IDWGFfcl.jpg

 

Note that the app currently only shows the FFB effects, but does not send them over to the CLS-E, so don't get too excited just yet. I'm still drumming up the funds to purchase a CLS-E base, which will give me access to the CLS2Sim software.

 

Here's a video of the app with the Ka-50. Note that "center position" means the centering position of the FFB motors, not the stick position:

 

 

And here's a video of it with the Su-25T. I start by adjusting the trim, then perform some maneuvers to get the periodic effect to start playing. I pop off the cockpit to show the period getting longer, which changes the movements from fast and sharp to a more rhythmic movement:

 

 

I've also discovered some interesting things. vJoy's implementation of FFB reporting is incomplete and doesn't cover several effect types. For example, vJoy won't send any FFB reports when the FFB axes is swapped in DCS, and likewise when changing the damper and friction settings in ForceTest and SimFFB. Also, swapping the FFB axes in DCS won't actually do anything to the FFB message in vJoy, and some aircraft will report their FFB axes the "right" way and others the swapped way. It seems like there's an intermediate layer that handles reversing/un-reversing the FFB axes that vJoy doesn't handle.

 

Luckily, the axis swapping issue can be fixed by adding a manual checkbox for it, and it seems like neither DCS nor IL:2 BoX uses damper and friction, so we're good on that front. I'll add in manual settings for those 2 effects though since CLS2Sim supports them. It does feel like I'm stepping around a minefield; I haven't triggered any so far, and hopefully it stays that way, but I've had to add multiple workarounds for various issues, mostly stemming from vJoy.

 

For now I'll have to pause work on this app until I get a CLS-E base. Although I can continue working on integrating DCS' telemetry data with my app, I feel that I should really get the centering and periodic effect nailed down first before working on anything else, since those 2 effects are the foundation of the app. Stay tuned for future updates.

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For now I'll have to pause work on this app until I get a CLS-E base. Although I can continue working on integrating DCS' telemetry data with my app, I feel that I should really get the centering and periodic effect nailed down first before working on anything else, since those 2 effects are the foundation of the app. Stay tuned for future updates.

hm, nice work, but is it really worth doing this if there is meant to be support for DCS within this year?

Basically you would do this work only to bridge half a year or so.

 

 

Don't get me wrong, if you enjoy doing this, please proceed.

Just want to make sure that you're not wasting your time. ;)

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Bernihy, I am hopeful for F-18 stick shaker and environmental cues to enhance immersion.

For that you don't really need high forces, I think.

4.2 Nm gives you a good and defined feeling of the forces without requiring you to use immense force to steer the aircraft.

As I said, you should be fine, unless you expect to pull on the stick like you're bonkers. ;)

 

 

 

The main thing that would be interesting, but is not possible to do with the CLS-E (and I actually checked this with their support) is to simulate a FSSB type stick (e.g. F-16, iirc).

With the CLS-P (50 Nm) this is possible, but the CLS-E can't do it or at least not properly.

Unfortunately the CLS-P is way too expensive for any home simulator application.

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hm, nice work, but is it really worth doing this if there is meant to be support for DCS within this year?

 

Based on this post by kingpinda, Brunner only plans to implement force changing with airspeed for now. I believe I can do much better. Centering is really the must-have FFB effect, especially for helicopters. I'm planning to implement damper and friction, and using SimShaker's lua export as inspiration, I want to also add in things like gun shake, ground rolling bumps, stick shaking near stall speeds, gear transition vibrations, etc.

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Berniyh, my question was more to gain insight over what measurements actually mean. I am looking for realism not Hollywood. .4 to 4 is a significant statistical increase but I have no experience with any tools that measure Nn. What to expect from the increase was a question I wanted answered. I have no desire to get yanked around in my seat but don’t want a buzzing like a PS4 controller, especially for $1200. Hopefully the 13 apples helps other that are curious about what Nm “feels” like to help them decide if this is something they want to try.

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It means that it produces torque 4.2N (0.42 Kg force) per 1 meter of stick length.

For example having stick length 0.3 meter you will have 0.42/0.3 = 1.4kg at maximum deflection.

 

As about real forces. NATOPS manual for F-18 says that stick force is sum of pitch rate force(no concrete numbers but for MiG 29 it is up to to 5kg at maximum deflection) plus force dependant on G ( near 1.5 kg per G). So, max force at 9G at max deflection can easily reach 15Kg. For 0.3 m stick it requires 50Nm. BUT!!!! Do you really need such real force for home cockpit?

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Propeller, I am not an engineer and based on your response you seem fluent in enineer-ese. To me realism and realistic have two different contexts. Your response illustrates what I was trying to address, in it you used Kilograms, I have used pounds all my life. Kilos has no more frame of reference than Nm to me. We have all probably picked up an apple or a bag of apples at a roadside stand.

 

I have flown Pipers, Cessnas and Naval F-14 and F-18 simulators and felt control shake from stalls, increased back pressure from constant rate turns and the like. All of these cues that add to realism are currently missing and I look forward to adding them to the experience. I have no idea if what I experienced in the F-14 and F-18 sims was realistic but the stick forces added realism.

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It is all about combination of behaviour and force. To simulate behaviour correctly you need behaviour description. To simulate force correctly we need enough power (Nm) from actuators.... and information about forces on stick in reality. It is key of success. But everything is implementable :)

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Propeller, I am not an engineer and based on your response you seem fluent in enineer-ese. To me realism and realistic have two different contexts. Your response illustrates what I was trying to address, in it you used Kilograms, I have used pounds all my life. Kilos has no more frame of reference than Nm to me. We have all probably picked up an apple or a bag of apples at a roadside stand.

 

I have flown Pipers, Cessnas and Naval F-14 and F-18 simulators and felt control shake from stalls, increased back pressure from constant rate turns and the like. All of these cues that add to realism are currently missing and I look forward to adding them to the experience. I have no idea if what I experienced in the F-14 and F-18 sims was realistic but the stick forces added realism.

 

Just multiply by 2.2(05)?

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Based on this post by kingpinda, Brunner only plans to implement force changing with airspeed for now. I believe I can do much better. Centering is really the must-have FFB effect, especially for helicopters. I'm planning to implement damper and friction, and using SimShaker's lua export as inspiration, I want to also add in things like gun shake, ground rolling bumps, stick shaking near stall speeds, gear transition vibrations, etc.

True, centering (I'd rather continue calling it force trim though) is the one thing you want to have.

Fortunately, this is already there, since you can just use the hardware trim functionality, which doesn't require sim support at all. :)

 

 

tbh, I'm happy with the stick in DCS as is. Sure, it's not perfect, but for me as a helicopter pilot, it's good.

 

 

@Fusedspine33: the stick gives a good force unless you put a long extension on it (since the force at the end point decreases with increasing handle length for constant torque).

For the base + TM grip (without extension), for me the max force is more than I would want to have in a stick for a longer time, meaning it would be tiring.

 

If it is realistic, I can't tell, but that surely depends strongly on the aircraft.


Edited by Berniyh
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  • 2 weeks later...

Ranma13 thanks for putting your time into this. I was on the fence to buy this device when I get my tax return or wait 6 months to see where Brunner would be with its implementation. But I most probably will buy it sooner rather than later due to your efforts. Hopefully Brunner will get this thing up and running how it should in the future but untill that time comes I can rely on your coding skills to get me going.

 

 

Berniyh thanks to you as well. I love flying helo's in DCS and i havent done some serious helo flying since I swapped my logitech G940 for the Warthog HOTAS. Knowing a fellow rotorhead is very pleased with this device gives me hope. I never could get used to 'return stick to center' after trim after I flew the black shark with ffb for ages.


Edited by kingpinda
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Evaluating ordering a CLS-E purchase

 

I'm due to receive a MongoosT-50CM2 there new grip. I contacted Brunner on there implementation of force feedback. I'll paste there response below, I found it encouraging.

 

My question is if I purchase it now would it be an upgrade to the Warbird base that I will be getting. Or should I just wait until Brunner releases there software.

 

Thanks in advance.

 

---------------------------------------------------

 

Hello Jim

 

The CLS- E Joystick already works with DCS World...

Only static forces over game controller are supported at the moment

 

As we have many peopel asking for this,

implementation for force feedback in DCS is now in progress and should be released soon

 

Thanks,

 

kind regards

 

Stefan Brunner

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