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How JF-17 came to being.


hamza_Khan

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Recently i ran across few interviews of Air Marshal Shahid Lateef (retd). found it really interesting.

 

Just a quick background, He was JF-17 CDP (Chief Project Director) of jf 17 programme that was not able to start due to difficulties, Through his efforts, the project finally was brought back to life.

 

The interview was in Urdu, here it is translated.

 

So the jf-17 wasn’t always jf-17. It started in a very different way. It started with a plane we had, called F-7, it’s a copy of MIG-21. Our friends in china used to develop planes through reverse engineering. When JF-17 was made, this was the time when we helped them a lot in the development. I’ve said it multiple times, it was our brainware and their Hardware. And they also acknowledge it because we had experience in both war and western equipment. They said it all themselves. This is the reason why Chinese Air force never joined this project.

 

They (PLAAF) told us we can’t help you in this project in anyway, because you want a jet similar to the west. Since we have no experience in western technology or war, You (Pakistan) will have to lead it, as for industry, in that we(china) have 35-40 years’ experience in development of aircrafts. We will help you in every way we can. It meant that we (Pakistan) will provide the concept and they (china) will help us with the manufacturing and hardware. That’s how they learned from us about the western technology and we learned from them about the manufacturing.

 

As I said before we had a f-7, this the time around late 80s (In the interview he first said 90s then corrects it to late 80s). This was a difficult time for us because we were US Allies in the war of Afghanistan in which we greatly participated. After the war we came up with an idea to upgrade our F-7 fleet and we came up with the name super 7, because that time we were not qualified to make a plane of our own. We wanted it to be our front line fighter. We named the project Sabre II.

 

We approached Northrop Grumman. We asked for their help in this project to discuss and see how they can help us with it and how much of it can be made possible.

In this process we created a team, and we involved the Chinese too because they had very good experience in aircraft development. Chinese and us approached Grumman with Project Sabre II. When the discussions began, it took a long time and we went through all steps to see what we want and what Grumman can deliver. When talks proceeded to advance stages we felt like what we wanted Grumman couldn’t deliver it because what we wanted meant that Grumman would have to change the entire structure of the plane and changing a planes structure is just like creating a complete new aircraft. In short what we in F-7 was just not possible in this structure. End of the day we dropped it and we completely detached ourselves from it. But the Chinese didn’t, the ideas Chinese gained from it were very useful, and they started working on it internally. The Chinese understood that if f-7 can’t be upgraded according to PAF needs, we (Chinese) can develop new plane with a new structure. So what came out of all the discussions with Grumman was the Chinese started thinking that since we (china) have experience in reverse engineering, now all that learnt from Grumman, we (china) have to design a plane that is not reversed engineered. They started working on it.

 

At this point project sabre II was a failure for us (PAF) but the name super 7 remained in our minds because we needed a new aircraft. China knew our needs and they were working on it.

Now we enter the 90s, the most difficult time for us, sanctions are imposed on us. The sanctions were so bad that they stopped the maintenance of the f-16s we had at that time provided by the US as an aid (They were worth 3+ billion dollars and most of it was paid by the US) against war in Afghanistan. And the ones we had ordered ourselves which was not a part of an aid worth 600+ millions dollars which we paid for was not delivered. Now when we asked for our 600+ million dollars back since f-16s won’t be delivered they told us the money won’t be returned instead you can buy soybean or sugarcane worth the same amount.

 

Now you can understand how difficult position we were in, Project sabre was failed/rejected. Current f-16s not being maintained. New f-16s won’t be delivered. And we lost 600+million dollars. For a country like us this was a huge amount.

 

This is when the Govt of Pakistan told us (PAF) that we have to develop a plane indigenously. Now we again approached to our friends in china from Grumman times and presented them with our case. And told them this time we want an indigenously developed jet.

Chinese were really kind to us. They told us that they did not spend any money in all the discussions that took place with Grumman, all was borne by Pakistan. But we (Chinese) gained a lot from it. From all the information we gained, we can work together and create a new jet. This is how Pakistan and China started working together on the new project but the name remained same Super 7.

 

For the next 5 years (till 1999) the discussions took place between china and Pakistan about wide variety of things. On what is possible and what’s not. It was a long and difficult discussions because PLAAF were not involved, we PAF use to talk about Operations and since we were dealing with a civilian company they use to talk about business there was this huge gap. But this was our combination.

 

At this time I (shahid lateef) was serving as Air Commodore. The Chief project director of that time choose me as deputy chief project director of operations. Aound 1998-99 a new CPD (Chief project director) was appointed. Remember until now this all super 7. I also moved and got appointed as Base Commander Kamra. I wanted to work in super 7 project but this was required step for my future (to serve as base commander).

 

I was in regular contact with people involved in super 7 project. What happened was our CPD of that time had this weird thing in his mind that the Chinese can’t deliver us what we want. He was an F-16 pilot and he had this very weird and unusual thing that “they can’t deliver”. When this news used to reach me I would get real sad that we are wasting such a good chance to develop a plane. I never believed that the Chinese couldn’t help us. I tried my best to deliver this message through people to make sure this project keeps going on but I wasn’t there and this could have been considered as an interface.

 

Now as I said before I was moved to Kamra (PAF Minhas). As you know Kamra is the home of PAC (Pakistan aeronautical complex which is present inside the base I was managing). Chairman of PAC was my academic teacher during flying school days. I was his student. Since we had a deep relationship I always used to go to him and complain that “What kind of approach we are taking by saying that they can’t deliver and there are talks that we are backing out. This is a very bad decision”. I use to complain as a base commander, I had spent 2 years as DCPD operations. I knew that the Chinese could deliver.

 

When I use to complain to Chairman PAC, sometimes he would get angry and say “Remember if I ever get a chance, I will appoint you to this project and then you’ll have to deliver what you claim. Don’t forget. If I ever get a chance you will be in charge even if the project is stopped do you accept it and used to say YES” this happened many times.

Now around 2000s. By some miracle PAC chairman got promoted to Chief of the Air Staff. The moment the news reached him, at this point he wasn’t even appointed. He called me and said remember what you used to say, I said yes. He told me as soon as your tenure as a base commander is completed, you will be appointed as CPD.

 

As soon as my tenure was over, I was appointed as CPD for super 7. Since the last CPD never believed in this project we faced a huge set back. The Chinese also found this out and were very resentful and rightfully so. The project was almost dead when I was appointed.

I knew Chinese are very delicate people. They respect culture, relationship, friendships a lot. Since I had a very very good relationship with them during my time as DCPD, The first thing I did was to call a meeting to clear all the bad air. Again the Chinese treated us like brothers. We cleared the air and they were very happy that now I was CPD.

 

Now we all started working very hard and made it our goal to roll out a working prototype in 3 years. At this time remember we are talking about super 7. We were still keeping our reference as f-7. This was the turning point, this Is what got me thinking why are we keeping f-7 as a reference? Our reference should be F-16 (I was a f-16 pilot). This was a huge Turning point. During our project management review after every 3 months, the Chinese used to complain to me about how I have a new requirement in every review, which was making it hard to freeze a design. To be honest we had a lot of fights because of this. But they understood that it’s our need.

 

The next difficult stage was transfer of technology, remember our goal was to develop our own aircrafts. This was a very delicate matter.

 

I remember the US ambassador at that time used to warn me, Air Marshall we are watching you. They were afraid that we’ll pass out sensitive information form the F-16s we had. I use respond by saying you can lockup everything but not my brain. We faced a lot of critics, people never believed that a jet could be made in 3 years. It takes 10-15 years to develop. They used to say our jets will fall out skies like birds. But we were determined.

I used to work with the Chinese very closely like their own. This developed a very strong relationship. All this were producing good results. We use to work day and night. This is around 2002. And we are still super 7.

 

Now we are very near to the development. Now I used to reference like ‘see f-7 has this and this but our plane will have a fly by wire, glass cockpit etc etc which is nothing like f-7’. When all these references were on the table, I slowly convinced them that this all should be part of our plane because this is the future. It was very hard to convince them. This was all a big jump from which was first decided (f-7).

 

Around the end of 02 and start of 03, I made a decision that the name super 7 should be completely removed from this project because this is causing a huge misunderstanding because they (Chinese) were keeping F-7 as a reference and us F-16. So we scrapped the name super 7. I suggest the name F-17 because f16 was present so was f18. This was somewhere in the middle. We knew it will be better tha f16.

 

When we suggested the name F-17, I also explained them that from now on F-16 would be our base reference but we will go beyond f-16. They agreed. After a week they came back and suggested to put a J in their too for Joint since we both were involved and I very happily accepted. I was very happy our friends and us had both put our blood and sweat into it “J” deserved to be there. Hence a JF-17 was born. During these talks they told me since F-16 is called Falcon, we should also have a nickname. I discussed with my team and came up with “Thunder”. The Chinese accepted it. Now we have a JF-17 Thunder. A lot of things were streamlined. Now we all were keeping F-16 as reference. We were able to achieve a lot. Some things even better than f-16.

 

After Prototypes were tested, we proceeded towards Block-1.

 

Now as I mentioned before, Transfer of technology was the most delicate matter. No one wants to share their technology with others. It was our Brainware we were proud of it, we exposed the Chinese to western technology through our bainware but the hardware was all china. Negotiations began, during this time we were also offered J-10 to buy, after assessment we rejected it. We have a understanding that JF-17 is better than J-10. J-10 has its advantages it is a bigger plane can carry more load and many more advantages. But it was not for us, it did not meet our requirements. JF-17 was designed by us as per our requirements and we choose JF17 and rejected J10.

 

We said and negotiated that China will get 42% production and Pakistan 58%. We were partners but the Chinese were lead partners. It was hard negotiations to make a lead partner take less percentage. At the end of the day the Chinese agreed.

100% of the Avionics Technology was transferred, which helped as integrate weapons of our own. We used a universal software so we can integrate the latest equipment in the future like nav systems, radar, threat warning system, targeting pods etc.

This is how JF-17 come to being.

 

We cannot be more proud.

 

We learned a lot, gained a lot of experience. This has allowed us to take steps to develop our own 5th gen Aircraft. Project Azm is well underway and if all goes well in next 10-15 years we will roll out our own 5th gen fighter developed completely build and developed by Pakistan.

 

In very near future jf-17 Block III will rollout. which will sure be better than f-16s

 

 

Sources:

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8_EYJpaZ8uM&t=283s


Edited by hamza_Khan
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Thanks Khan Sahib, Great Read!

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That's completely bull.... As far as we know, Pakistan came in much later when China already had Super-7 or FC-1 prototype (see picture below). And that was why it was called FC-1 (Fighter China 1) instead of Joint Fighter 17, because back then, Pakistan hadn't contributed to the project yet. In fact, Pakistan only joined in after Chinese had already made 3 prototypes of FC-1. And that was why only the 4th prototype was named JF-17. Because Pakistan had made their contribution.

 

Pakistan wanted more than the FC-1 China had already designed, so China said, "OK, if you want something more, you need to contribute to the development fund." So Pakistan paid 50% estimated developmental fund to turn FC-1 into JF-17. As far as I know, Pakistan contributed little in terms of Technology. And the entire development process was conducted in China. So I don't know what you meant by "lead", "brainwave" and "develop new plane with new structure". The structure of FC-1 and Super-7 was already there. Basically, JF-17 is just a Pakistan contributed upgrade package for FC-1.

 

Also, I think you misunderstood why "China will get 42% production and Pakistan 58%". This is not about which nation get more part produced. This is about the fact that there are 42% of parts on JF-17 that Pakistan is yet to have the capacity to produce.

"The workshare agreement in effect between China and Pakistan permits PAC to produce 58% of the airframe and subsystems (the engine is imported from Russia). I imagine (and hope) the balance will gradually shift more to the Pakistani side as PAC becomes more capable."

 

https://quwa.org/2015/10/17/jf-17-block-2-and-block-3-details-confirmed/

 

Here is the first prototype marked 01, it marked "Super-7", which was the original name for the plane. The second picture shows that it was later renamed to FC-1.

fc-1_07.jpg

9a98d2e4bb777f9a91956c3af5ddac20.jpg

 

 

Second prototype: Still named FC-1 (Fighter China -1), indicated that Pakistan still had not involved in the project.

The second FC-1 prototype (serial number ‘02’) was built for static stress test. (therefore I couldn't find any picture)

 

The 4th prototype: Once again, still named FC-1 (Fighter China -1) initially, indicated that Pakistan still had not involved in the project.

The notice difference between the first and the 4th prototype is the diffuser supersonic inlet.

 

fc-1-prototype-03.jpg?w=600

 

 

Only afterwards, Pakistan had finally get involved with the project and the 4th prototype was repainted as JF-17

 

fc1_03_large.jpg?resize=800%2C445


Edited by J-20
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if you look closely to the joystick of JF17 you will find that it is very similar to the F-16. Actually this fighter is designed for pakisitan. Many memoris told the story about it.

There is one book called"东方枭龙" which told the story how this aircraft was born.

Fly when you ready

[sIGPIC][/sIGPIC]

GTX980M 16G X56

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Programme evolution

 

1987

China’s Chengdu Aircraft Corporation was interested in developing a lightweight fighter to replace its J-7 (Mig-21) aircraft.

 

1987

Pakistan’s desire for greater self-sufficiency in combat aircraft (especially in regards to a number of imposed sanctions by the USA and its allies).

The PAF also needed to replace its ageing combat aircraft.

The pressure on Pakistan was considerable since its neighbours were procuring large range of modern combat aircraft. PAF started to find ways of developing its own modern aircraft.

 

1987

Initial design from 1987 in collaboration with Pakistan, China and US Grumman Aircraft manufacturing was to develop a better improved version of the Chengdu J-7 (MIG-21) combat aircraft – project Sabre II. PAF in January 1987 had commissioned US based Grumman Aerospace to conduct studies and the feasibility of the Sabre II design concept with the Chinese Chengdu Aircraft Corporation (CAC)

 

1987+

Project Sabre II major modification was a redesigned fuselage with side-mounted engine air intakes to allow a larger radar to be placed in the nose from the modified J-7 aircraft.

Due to the escalating costs and political issues with the USA – Pakistan had withdrawn from this project.

 

1990

The Grumman corporation then continued the project with Chengdu - China National Aero Technology Import and Export Corporation (CATIC) and the Super-7 was born.

This had resulted in further changes into the aircraft design - further modifications to the fuselage and wing had led the design to look closer to the final FC-1 design However, this partnership was short-lived and Grumman withdrew from the project due to the Chinese Tiananmen protests.

 

----------

 

1998-1999

Pakistan and China had agreed to develop and manufacture this aircraft on a 50/50 basis - Pakistan became the first major co-producer of this fighter and its participation provided much needed financial support for the project (especially once the PLA indicated that it will not acquire the FC-1 at this stage).

 

1998-2007

China and Pakistan had then invited the Russian Mikoyan manufacturers to join the programme.

Engineers from the Mikoyan were provided and this helped in further design refinements and helped with the integration of a new engine, the RD-93 for the JF-17/FC-1 aircraft (a variant of the Klimov RD-33 aircraft used in Russian Mig-29 Fulcrum combat aircrafts).

 

1998-2007

Chengdu also incorporated some of the lessons it had obtained from its development of the J-10 Vigorous Dragon 4 th generation combat aircraft.

It is said that the the Chief Designer of Chendu’s J-20 5 th generation combat aircraft, Dr Yang Wei was involved in the FC-1/JF-17 programme. [19]

 

2007 - 2018

The first combat aircraft were delivered to the PAF in March 2007 and with co-production taking place. It is stated by numerous sources that the PAF plans to induct between 250-300 JF-17 Thunder multi-role combat aircraft (including a number of evolving blocks and 2 dual-seater combat aircraft).

By February 2018, Pakistan had 6 active JF-17 Squadrons comprising over 100+ combat aircraft produced by PAC/CAC manufacturing facilities. Two-seater JF17B was flown in 2017 and 3 initial aircraft to be manufactured. 2 JF-17B for the PAF and 1 to stay in China for further test evaluations.

 

2017-18

Production of export aircraft to Myanmar (Burma) and Nigeria had begun. JF-17 Block 3 work has started with production to commence in 2019/20,

 

Source : Book "JF-17 Thunder: The Making of a Modern Cost- effective Multi-role Combat Aircraft" by SAGHIR IQBAL


Edited by sylkhan
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I feel that the relationship between PAF and the Chinese company was more that of a client as opposed to technological partner. PAF probably helped set out the specs for the plane and helped test and funded part of the project if you can call that 'brainware' . As far as I can tell hardware isn't just hardware. Particularly avionics. That was probably all the Chinese company.

 

PAF seems to have done developments on top of the base plane like weapon integrations.

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I feel that the relationship between PAF and the Chinese company was more that of a client as opposed to technological partner. PAF probably helped set out the specs for the plane and helped test and funded part of the project if you can call that 'brainware' . As far as I can tell hardware isn't just hardware. Particularly avionics. That was probably all the Chinese company.

 

PAF seems to have done developments on top of the base plane like weapon integrations.

 

Exactly. FC-1 was Chinese brainchild. If Pakistan starts to discredit where credits are due, then they might find that one day China is unwilling to help when they are attacked by their big neighbor.

That seems to be the case with the FC-31 project. That's why you don't see a JF-31 project anywhere.

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Exactly. FC-1 was Chinese brainchild. If Pakistan starts to discredit where credits are due, then they might find that one day China is unwilling to help when they are attacked by their big neighbor.

That seems to be the case with the FC-31 project. That's why you don't see a JF-31 project anywhere.

 

I don't think it's fair to call JF-17 the brainchild of any single group. At the very least, the technical details of the F-16 Pakistan provided to China should justify their contribution. Sure, Chengdu may have handled some critical aspects of the project but without Pakistan's input on the aircraft's performance requirements, JF17 may be totally different from what it is today, or even scrapped to make way for J-10 as the FC-1 project loses it's main client.


Edited by rinao0o
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I don't think it's fair to call JF-17 the brainchild of any single group. At the very least, the technical details of the F-16 Pakistan provided to China should justify their contribution. Also, without Pakistan's input on the aircraft's design specifications, JF17 may be totally different from what it is today, or even scrapped to make way for J-10 as the project loses it's client.

 

Won't be totally different. Like I mentioned earlier, FC-1 was already made. Pakistan just contributed on some modifications. And those modification only got involved after the 4th prototype (with DSI inlet) was already made. So that means, without Pakistan, FC-1 would have looked exactly the same as today.

 

That's why in China, people still call it FC-1. Your kid will always be your kid, the fact won't alter just because his foster parents paid some of his tuition fee.


Edited by J-20
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Won't be totally different. Like I mentioned earlier, FC-1 was already made. Pakistan just contributed on some modifications. And those modification only got involved after the 4th prototype (with DSI inlet) was already made. So that means, without Pakistan, FC-1 would have looked exactly the same as today.

 

That's why in China, people still call it FC-1. Your kid will always be your kid, the fact won't alter just because his foster parents paid some of his tuition fee.

 

Why did you ignore part of my response, my point is: the technical details of the F-16 plus the design specifications Pakistan provided partially decided what JF17 ultimately became. Pakistan joined the project way earlier than the production of the first FC-1 prototype. They were there since Super7 remember? I'm not saying that China's contribution in the "brainwave" part should be completely discredited, but that goes the same for Pakistan. In addition, if you take a look at J-10's hud picture, you'll find great influence from the F-16's hud which maybe the result of Chengdu's cooperation with Pakistan during the super7/FC-1 project.


Edited by rinao0o
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Why did you ignore part of my response, my point is: the technical details of the F-16 plus the design specifications Pakistan provided partially decided what JF17 ultimately became. Pakistan joined the project way earlier than the production of the first FC-1 prototype. They were there since Super7 remember? I'm not saying that China's contribution in the "brainwave" part should be completely discredited, but that goes the same for Pakistan. In addition, if you take a look at J-10's hud picture, you'll find great influence from the F-16's hud which maybe the result of Chengdu's cooperation with Pakistan during the super7/FC-1 project.

 

What are you talking about? Super-7 was Super-7. Pakistan wasn't in it. Back then Pakistan had their own project called Sabre II, which had some merit in FTC-2000.

 

HUD of F-16? That's just an interface, people can program it to look like anything. I am sure if customers demand it, they can even make it looks like Alien craft interface from "Independence Day".

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What are you talking about? Super-7 was Super-7. Pakistan wasn't in it. Back then Pakistan had their own project called Sabre II, which had some merit in FTC-2000.

 

HUD of F-16? That's just an interface, people can program it to look like anything. I am sure if customers demand it, they can even make it looks like Alien craft interface from "Independence Day".

 

Why are you so kin on minimising other nation’s role in the project? What about the Russian engine? What about the experience China gained from Grumman in those earlier cooperations? And Pakistan’s experiences in using NATO equipments? Yes Chengdu did the most amount of work and they deserve the most credit as PO mentioned. But stop claiming all the prizes, you make me feel embarrassed as a fellow Chinese.


Edited by rinao0o
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Why are you so kin on minimising other nation’s role in the project? What about the Russian engine? What about the experience China gained from Grumman in those earlier cooperations? And Pakistan’s experiences in using NATO equipments? Yes Chengdu did the most amount of work and they deserve the most credit as PO mentioned. But stop claiming all the prizes, you make me feel embarrassed as a fellow Chinese.

 

What are you even talking about? Minimising one's role in the project? Since when? I specifically stated that Pakistan paid 50% of the fund. I stated facts. Super-7 is Super-7, saber II is saber II.

I am seriously started to think that one of us is having English issue. And I doubt it was me. You make me feel embarrassed as a fellow Homo sapient. No should say: as a fellow Eukaryotes.


Edited by J-20
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What are you even talking about? Minimising one's role in the project? Since when? I specifically stated that Pakistan paid 50% of the fund. I stated facts. Super-7 is Super-7, saber II is saber II.

I am seriously started to think that one of us is having English issue. And I doubt it was me. You make me feel embarrassed as a fellow Homo sapient. No should say: as a fellow Eukaryotes.

 

Like when you were so sure that Pakistan were pure customers and specifically stated that "FC-1 was Chinese brainchild", and that the HUD's similarities with NATO equipment definitely had nothing to do with Pakistan's involvement? And do you think that Pakistan's data on the F-16 had absolutely no contribution to the FC-1 project? Just answer me yes or no, you have been evading this question for too long.

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Like when you were so sure that Pakistan were pure customers and specifically stated that "FC-1 was Chinese brainchild"

 

Of course it is. You guys weren't even involved until after the 4th prototype was made.

 

and that the HUD's similarities with NATO equipment definitely had nothing to do with Pakistan's involvement?

 

Since when did I say that? So contribution in the interface design should count as contribution for the aircraft design? I don't see the logic in your statement.

 

 

And do you think that Pakistan's data on the F-16 had absolutely no contribution to the FC-1 project? Just answer me yes or no, you have been evading this question for too long.

 

I didn't evade any of your question. It was you who are hell bend on trying to grab on to any trivial issue to fuel your Pakistan pride. Love your country is one thing. Making up excuses to fuel nationalistic pride is quite another.

 

OK, let me answer this as direct as I can. No, F-16 from Pakistan had no contribution to FC-1 project whatsoever. It only contributed to JF-17 project. Because FC-1 was already made before JF-17. Pakistan contributed to the development of an upgrade package which turned FC-1 into JF-17. As far as I know, if a customer want to, they can still purchase FC-1 directly from China, the version without Pakistan involvement.


Edited by J-20
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What are you even talking about? Minimising one's role in the project? Since when? I specifically stated that Pakistan paid 50% of the fund. I stated facts. Super-7 is Super-7, saber II is saber II.

I am seriously started to think that one of us is having English issue. And I doubt it was me. You make me feel embarrassed as a fellow Homo sapient. No should say: as a fellow Eukaryotes.

 

I'll reiterate my point, FC1/JF17 was a joint project which received combined effort in both design and manufacture from multiple entities including the Pakistanis and the Russians. Chengdu is the major contributor and deserves the most credit, but it is unfair to call it the Brainchild of a single group. I apologies for any mistakes I made out of ignorance in my previous comments but I still believe that calling one of the contributors a "customer" seems like an insult to our Pakistan friends and I wish you can retract that comment. If you think you are 100% correct then let's agree to disagree so we can stop playing word games like not using FC1/JF17 interchangeably and end this pointless discussion.


Edited by rinao0o
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Here is how Pakistan contributed to the project. Those photos are from the original Super-7 prototype when it was marketed. Pakistan wanted a new cockpit and interface system similar to F-16, so they can easily transfer their F-16 pilots to JF-17. That's why they used F-16's HUD and data to ask China to redesign the cockpit for them. If someone believes that ask the seller to customize the cockpit and the control interface should not be counted as contribution to the aircraft design itself. Like I mentioned earlier, it is one thing to feel the pride of your nation, but that is no excuse to make up story for it. We all love our nation, that doesn't mean I am going to make up a story and feel proud of it. If I have to make up a story to feel proud of my nation, then I think there is a problem of my nation (either that, or there is something wrong with me lol). Therefore, I suggest you to love your Pakistan and show your patriotism in a right way.

 

I am not insulting anyone. FC-1 was intended to be a cheap 4th gen fighter with capabilities such as BVR with F&F, precision strike, SEAD, etc... and was designed for many 3rd world friends who cannot afford to purchase a 4th gen fighter like J-10.

In fact there was even a cheaper fighter being design for the even more budget constrained countries, which was called J-7FS (please see the picture below).

Pakistan contributed by turning FC-1 from a cheap fighter into a proper 4th gen fighter which can go head to head with a F-16A, because back then, China was reluctant to share J-10 tech with the FC-1, since FC-1 was marketed as an export only plane. But we must know that when Pakistan joined the project, the FC-1 prototype was already made. So there is no way, they could have contributed to the design of the aircraft itself.

 

As you can see from the picture, at that point, the FC-1 design was already completed. JF-17 was more of an upgrade package much like the MiG-23MLD to the MiG-23MLA than a redesign. As far as I know if now a customer walks in, and tell China that they want to purchase some FC-1 (without Pakistan add on), China can legally produce the original FC-1 and sell to them without even the need to even notify Pakistan.

 

 

exuBLDX.jpg

 

p7MKqOL.jpg

 

 

fc1.jpg

 

J-7FS:

Aimed to directly add BVR capability to the J-7

Only 2 prototypes were made. No production.

tTEcmQi.jpg


Edited by J-20
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  • 2 weeks later...

All these "facts" and no sources. Where specifically did the manufacturer or the military state that the only contribution to the project made from other countries were only monetary and/or minimal?

 

 

These arguements seems pointless since they are just between people with strong national pride.

 

Can we just stick with actual facts with proper researched sources provided. The ones that are not some news article or blogs?

Current Hangar : A-10C II ¦ AJS-37 ¦ A/V-8B ¦ F-14A/B ¦ F/A-18C ¦ FC3 ¦ JF-17 ¦ Ka-50 ¦ Mi-8 ¦ M2000-C ¦ SA342 ¦ UH-1H

 

Other Modules : Combined Arms ¦ Persian Gulf

 

TRAINED - LEARNING - UNTOUCHED - ABANDONED

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All these "facts" and no sources. Where specifically did the manufacturer or the military state that the only contribution to the project made from other countries were only monetary and/or minimal?

 

 

These arguements seems pointless since they are just between people with strong national pride.

 

Can we just stick with actual facts with proper researched sources provided. The ones that are not some news article or blogs?

 

 

Agreed, not just blogs, youtube and forums shouldn't be used either.

 

Honestly, this thread is meaningless.

Can forum manager please lock or delete this thread just in case people turn it into a bashing thread.

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